Is bjj original

[dunc]

I believe that the most original aspect of BJJ is the open guard. Some open guards such as Ashi Garami are derived from older Japanese techniques, but if you take the more modern guards and even some that are, in this day and age seen as old school, you'll find some originals - De La Riva, Worm, Spider, Mantis, De La X and Lasso are just some of them.

The great thing about BJJ is that it's not complete and most likely never will be. There are so many new techniques and open guards that have popped up in just the last two decades such as the Ham Sandwich, The Truck, Banana Splits and Aoki Locks, to name some, although do correct me if they are older.

Also, I think Berimbolos and Inversions, are a pretty new thing in jiujitsu too.

De la Riva guard is present in the old Kosen Judo techniques, but I agree that a lot of the modern lapel guards, inversions etc are innovations in their own right

 

[gerardfoy50]

Re-emphasising this sentence in my post
“innovated considerably in no gi grappling”

Hate to play devils advocate but I saw a documentary on the gracies, there were 2 groups learning judo groundwork in Brazil, one was the gracies who were rich boys and used students had to buy gi thereby keeping it exclusive and the other for poor kids who practised no hi cause they couldn’t afford hi, I believe it was them who developed the no gi until they were pushed out by the gracies

 

[Alan0354]

Does anyone know how many bjj techniques are invented by bjj, as far as I know they are all just judo groundwork technique with a different name, have they actually created anything for themselves,

I had one year of judo, I did not see most of BJJ technique. Not just I never learn, never seen senior people did any of those. Judo seems to spend more effort to throw people down and defense from being thrown. The ground game seems to be a lot more primitive, nothing like what I saw in BJJ. BJJ seems to come alive when they get on the ground.

Not saying BJJ wasn't originally from Judo, I have no idea about the history. maybe they took whatever from Judo long time ago and ran with it and add things on their own. I just don't relate the two. In fact if I were young and without all the injuries, I would seriously going to a BJJ class, I would never go back to Judo.

 

[dunc]

Hate to play devils advocate but I saw a documentary on the gracies, there were 2 groups learning judo groundwork in Brazil, one was the gracies who were rich boys and used students had to buy gi thereby keeping it exclusive and the other for poor kids who practised no hi cause they couldn’t afford hi, I believe it was them who developed the no gi until they were pushed out by the gracies

Hi
With respect I think you’re confusing the early days of BJJ (lead by a small group of folk and the Gracies) with the development of BJJ from then until now

 

[gerardfoy50]

Hi
With respect I think you’re confusing the early days of BJJ (lead by a small group of folk and the Gracies) with the development of BJJ from then until now

But wasn’t it luta livre that’s focused on no gi and the gracies learnt it during this feud

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hate to play devils advocate but I saw a documentary on the gracies, there were 2 groups learning judo groundwork in Brazil, one was the gracies who were rich boys and used students had to buy gi thereby keeping it exclusive and the other for poor kids who practised no hi cause they couldn’t afford hi, I believe it was them who developed the no gi until they were pushed out by the gracies

How it got started isn't relevant to the state of it today. There are schools that put most of their effort in no-gi training today (probably some that do only no-gi). It has been evolving steadily.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had one year of judo, I did not see most of BJJ technique. Not just I never learn, never seen senior people did any of those. Judo seems to spend more effort to throw people down and defense from being thrown. The ground game seems to be a lot more primitive, nothing like what I saw in BJJ. BJJ seems to come alive when they get on the ground.

Not saying BJJ wasn't originally from Judo, I have no idea about the history. maybe they took whatever from Judo long time ago and ran with it and add things on their own. I just don't relate the two. In fact if I were young and without all the injuries, I would seriously going to a BJJ class, I would never go back to Judo.

From what I understand, the amount and variety of groundwork in Judo seems to have varied a lot. The Judo I took spent about 30% of the time on groundwork, and might have included some collegiate wrestling influence - I seem to recall working positions that would have been unusual in Judo competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But wasn’t it luta livre that’s focused on no gi and the gracies learnt it during this feud

The point is that this doesn't speak to the current state of no-gi in BJJ.

 

[lklawson]

There's a concept in biology called "convergent evolution", which is when similar organisms develop similar traits without being related. It could be something they invented, even though it was already invented, because it's not something commonly known anymore.

There's only so many ways to break a human body and we've had the same basic physical design for thousands upon thousands of years; fighting and wrestling the whole time.

Like gunpowder. Did some German monk invent it in the early 14th Century? Probably. Did the Chinese invent it a few centuries earlier? Certainly.

Fighting is fighting.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Interesting, so how much do you think is original in bjj,

Depends on what you mean by "original." If you mean the techniques, well, nothing. Humanity has had the same biomechanical design for many thousands of years and wrestling is often said to be humanity's "first martial art." It's absurd to believe that any wrestling technique or variation hasn't already been used before now. What's more this idea is generally supported by manuals and artwork dating back to, literally, cave-art and going forward through the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc. right up through the present.

If you're talking about the application of those techniques and a training methodology specifically applied to the 20th Century and early 21st Century context, then, well, it's probably mostly unique because the social, cultural, and technological context of today is unique from any other time in history.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

BJJ came from judo so there is a lot of cross over in terms of fundamentals
However, BJJ has
a) incorporated techniques from other systems, most notably wrestling takedowns

Actually, so did Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

From what I understand, the amount and variety of groundwork in Judo seems to have varied a lot. The Judo I took spent about 30% of the time on groundwork, and might have included some collegiate wrestling influence - I seem to recall working positions that would have been unusual in Judo competition.

It's basically what rule set you use. There've been probably a dozen or more different rule sets and variations, ranging from almost no rules through kosen through modern olympic rules.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[gerardfoy50]

Depends on what you mean by "original." If you mean the techniques, well, nothing. Humanity has had the same biomechanical design for many thousands of years and wrestling is often said to be humanity's "first martial art." It's absurd to believe that any wrestling technique or variation hasn't already been used before now. What's more this idea is generally supported by manuals and artwork dating back to, literally, cave-art and going forward through the Mesopotamians, Egyptians, etc. right up through the present.

If you're talking about the application of those techniques and a training methodology specifically applied to the 20th Century and early 21st Century context, then, well, it's probably mostly unique because the social, cultural, and technological context of today is unique from any other time in history.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thanks for the feedback seems like bjj although it hasn’t really invented anything new, has focused and practised what was there that they are one of the best groundwork styles around, i hold back from saying the best because as far as I know kabib did judo and wrestling and beat everyone

 

[Alan0354]

From what I understand, the amount and variety of groundwork in Judo seems to have varied a lot. The Judo I took spent about 30% of the time on groundwork, and might have included some collegiate wrestling influence - I seem to recall working positions that would have been unusual in Judo competition.

Ha ha, my Judo days was over 50 years ago. We did not spend much time on the ground AND it's only my school be it very famous. Never looked back into Judo after that. They concentrated on throw people down and that's the end, only practice ground stuff once a while.

Maybe because those days, all the movies glorified jumping around, striking etc. Like the Wang Yu days in the mid 60s.............LOOOOONG time ago.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ha ha, my Judo days was over 50 years ago. We did not spend much time on the ground AND it's only my school be it very famous. Never looked back into Judo after that. They concentrated on throw people down and that's the end, only practice ground stuff once a while.

Maybe because those days, all the movies glorified jumping around, striking etc. Like the Wang Yu days in the mid 60s.............LOOOOONG time ago.

My time in Judo was almost 40 years ago. Even back then, there was a fair amount of variation. I recall my instructor being unhappy with some trends in the art, but I didn't know enough then to understand what trends were bothering him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Probably any movement which is physically possible to carry out in a fight or grappling match has been discovered by multiple people in the past, if only by accident. A better question would be whether those techniques were practiced regularly or formalized as part of an art's curriculum.

There are definitely techniques in BJJ which were never part of any official Judo or JJJ curriculum and were probably not practiced regularly if someone did stumble on them. Things like Berimbolos or the Worm Guard come to mind. But I'd argue those aren't really what make BJJ special.

What BJJ did was take the ne-waza from Judo (probably not even the complete syllabus in the beginning, since Carlos Gracie didn't have a lot of training from Maeda) and delve deep into the details of how to make it work effectively. Along the way, the BJJ community swiped concepts, moves, and technical details from every other grappling art they encountered. Then they continued experimenting with ways to refine those moves over the course of 90 years, but particularly in the last 30 years as the community spread worldwide. There are basic techniques which I learned 20+ years ago that are now taught completely differently. The guillotine choke that I teach now looks outwardly like the guillotine that I learned back in the 90s, but you could argue that it's really a different technique because the finishing mechanics are fundamentally different.

That process of evolutionary refinement is how we end up with ne-waza knowledge in BJJ which you won't find in Judo.

Of course, BJJ is not the only art which has practiced continuous evolutionary refinement. While BJJ refined its newaza, its takedowns continued at a more rudimentary level. Meanwhile Judo continued developing a deeper and deeper understanding of how to set up and execute throws. And even though newaza was less emphasized in Judo, some people got very good at the aspects which are rewarded in Judo competition. For example, a Judo newaza specialist is more likely to be skilled at pinning someone with kesa gatame, transitioning directly from a throw into a submission, or attacking the turtle within a short time limit than a BJJ practitioner of the same level.

Which is good, because we BJJ practitioners will gladly steal the subtleties that practitioners of other arts have spent decades refining. Even now there are jiujiteiros analyzing the methods of Khabib Nurmagomedov to see what we can learn from his success.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Does anyone know how many bjj techniques are invented by bjj, as far as I know they are all just judo groundwork technique with a different name, have they actually created anything for themselves,

I don't think there is anything about human combat that could possibly be considered "original". We've been doing it for too long.

But these systems definitely love to label things. "Invented", na. More like classified, so they can be taught in a repeatable and accurate way.

Part of the problem with traditional styles is the classification system. Some arts have great ones that are more or less open to the public, and others are how you end up with George Dillman teaching you toe Chi magic..

 

[Alan0354]

My time in Judo was almost 40 years ago. Even back then, there was a fair amount of variation. I recall my instructor being unhappy with some trends in the art, but I didn't know enough then to understand what trends were bothering him.

I don't think we had that many Judo school in Hong Kong back it the day. My instructor was a movie star:
Fung Ngai - Google Search

He was quite famous in the MA circle and he was a personal friend of my parents. So I was lucky my parents even let me go there. It's not as if I had a choice. Parents just did not want me to learn. I had a choice of one school, take it or leave it!!!

 

[Olde Phart]

Have enjoyed reading the thread thus far, but it almost sounds like a "chicken or egg" discussion related to which one came first. Similar techniques between the two just used with slight variations, and then you have the spots where they differ. I have noticed the same thing in our own dojang that offers both Judo and Jiu Jitsu. But, I've also noticed the same thing in the various "karate" denominations on youtube and in the movies. A front snap kick is a front snap kick, a forearm block is a . . .

 

[Alan0354]

Have enjoyed reading the thread thus far, but it almost sounds like a "chicken or egg" discussion related to which one came first. Similar techniques between the two just used with slight variations, and then you have the spots where they differ. I have noticed the same thing in our own dojang that offers both Judo and Jiu Jitsu. But, I've also noticed the same thing in the various "karate" denominations on youtube and in the movies. A front snap kick is a front snap kick, a forearm block is a . . .

This is my wild guess without facts:

I bet BJJ was from Asia originally, just by the simple fact the history of the America continent is ONLY a few hundred years, people moved from all over the world to America continent. It is just logic that the original technique was brought in from outside. Then it just evolved in Brazil. Then you just look at difference styles and it's likely evolve from either Judo or Jujitsu of Japan.

Also remember Royce Gracie fight with "ge", that exactly like Judo "ge".( maybe japanese JJ "ge"). I don't record any Chinese MA wear those kind of white "ge".

That's the most logical way to GUESS.