Is American Kenpo Fake?

[drop bear]

Not talking about that. Jailhouse Rock/52 Blocks basically came about from the kung fu craze and incorporated elements of kung fu (and some other arts) into western boxing. I would agree that it is taught and trained as a martial art. Also, VERY few people are trained in it (comparision of other formalized training).

Not everything that is done in a jail/prison is "jailhouse rock" or "52 blocks". 99% of the inmates/gang members nowadays wouldn't even know what those terms were in regards to actual fighting unless they heard the references to it in some older rap songs.

boxing or Wrestling?

You think they were the province of rich people?

 

[punisher73]

boxing or Wrestling?

You think they were the province of rich people?

Huh? I honestly don't understand what you are asking. Here is my original post:
This has been a discussion before on what being "trained" means. Many career criminals practice and train techniques that have worked for them even though they have no "formal training" of going to a school. There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques. There is also the practice of "slap fighting" used by many to practice their hand techniques that is a form of sparring.

Someone posted a comment that what I was referring to was "Jailhouse Rock", which is what I replied to specifically that I wasn't talking about that (the quote you quoted).

I don't think boxing or wrestling is the province of rich people. I think both have a history of being done by all groups of people, at least here in the USA.

 

[Rusty B]

I don't think boxing or wrestling is the province of rich people. I think both have a history of being done by all groups of people, at least here in the USA.

I always thought it was the opposite. Often, poor rural people get made fun of for being into "rasslin."

As for boxing... I'd be hard-pressed to name a first generation boxer from either the past or present that didn't grow up poor. Off the top of my head, Canelo Alvarez is the only one I can come up with.

 

[wab25]

There are many different brands and models of 1911, double action 38. sp revolvers, etc... and yes, some are of higher quality than others, and even the ballistics of the .45 ACP and the .38 SPC have improved over the years.

Okay I have to ask...
How would you change your gun disarm if you were disarming a .45 ACP verses disarming a .38 SPC? What changes would you need to make to disarm a Glock? How does the improved ballistics effect your gun disarm technique?

 

[Rusty B]

Okay I have to ask...
How would you change your gun disarm if you were disarming a .45 ACP verses disarming a .38 SPC? What changes would you need to make to disarm a Glock? How does the improved ballistics effect your gun disarm technique?

You're preaching to the choir. I was making that same point earlier; I was just acknowledging what someone else said.

 

[wab25]

But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway. ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.

I always love this assumption... When I train Danzan Ryu, I spar with other Danzan Ryu guys.... but I also spar with the new guys who just started. Who are the new guys? Some have no clue how to fight. Some know how to fight on the street. Some have taken other martial arts styles. The truth is, you don't really know what the new guy knows or how he is going to respond. In fact, the experienced guy sparring with the new guy has to factor in a lot of things. First he has to deal with whatever it is that the new guy knows: nothing, street fighting, boxing, judo, wrestling... Second, he needs to handle it in a way that does not hurt the new guy and does not get himself hurt. Third, he has to do all this while using the art that he is studying. (if you are in karate class, and the new guy goes for a Judo throw, because he is a black belt in Judo, and you counter and use a double leg takedown... that looks bad for the karate class...)

I have sparred with the new guys as part of Danzan Ryu, Karate, and MMA classes. The new guys have run the entire spectrum of never fought at all ever, to beat the tar out of people in bar room brawl guys, to high school and college wrestlers and people with more years of martial arts training then I have. I would like to say I whipped them all.... but we know that didn't happen. However, I did learn a ton and got to learn how to adapt quickly.

 

[wab25]

For me the biggest difference between the common thug and the common martial artist (is there such a thing?) is intent. Martial artists intend to train. They intend to compete. They intend try new fancy techniques.

The common thug intends to hurt you. Thats a big difference. That is what makes the common thug harder to deal with than the guys you spar with... they don't intend to hurt you. Even if they are hitting you hard or throwing you hard, they don't intend to hurt you... they lose a sparring partner that way. Ever seen what happens in a common martial arts school when someone gets hit hard? The other guy stops to see if they are ok. When a common thug hits the other guy really hard, he hits him again and again and again...

In this sense, all martial arts are fake. If you have a reasonable expectation of going home after class... its fake. Even with the more competitive arts... the probability of you heading the hospital afterwards may be higher than if you are training mostly solo kata... but you still expect to go home every night instead of the hospital. Now when the common thug grabs you on the street and shoves you into the alley behind the bar and whips out his knife or brass knuckles... he is meaning to send you to the hospital or worse. If you can deal with that intent, it should not matter really what art you studied or who created it or who they learned it from.

 

[Rusty B]

I always love this assumption... When I train Danzan Ryu, I spar with other Danzan Ryu guys.... but I also spar with the new guys who just started. Who are the new guys? Some have no clue how to fight. Some know how to fight on the street. Some have taken other martial arts styles. The truth is, you don't really know what the new guy knows or how he is going to respond. In fact, the experienced guy sparring with the new guy has to factor in a lot of things. First he has to deal with whatever it is that the new guy knows: nothing, street fighting, boxing, judo, wrestling... Second, he needs to handle it in a way that does not hurt the new guy and does not get himself hurt. Third, he has to do all this while using the art that he is studying. (if you are in karate class, and the new guy goes for a Judo throw, because he is a black belt in Judo, and you counter and use a double leg takedown... that looks bad for the karate class...)

I have sparred with the new guys as part of Danzan Ryu, Karate, and MMA classes. The new guys have run the entire spectrum of never fought at all ever, to beat the tar out of people in bar room brawl guys, to high school and college wrestlers and people with more years of martial arts training then I have. I would like to say I whipped them all.... but we know that didn't happen. However, I did learn a ton and got to learn how to adapt quickly.

I came into the dojo untrained myself, but have some experience scrapping.

What I've noticed in myself, and others who come in to the dojo with either prior training in other martial art or who've grown up in environments where they've had to scrap, is that the new guys tend stick to the techniques that have been taught to them in karate so far.

For example, I remember one guy - who didn't stick around past the trial period, by the way - with prior boxing experience. He actually made no attempts to block - my guess is that karate "uke waza" didn't feel natural to him, and that he didn't block the way boxers do (i.e., ducking your head behind your gloves) either because he felt it wasn't allowed, or because he was making a genuine attempt to put that aside so he can focus strictly on learning karate.

That's pretty much what I did (I'm "naturally" a clinch fighter). As a matter of fact, I remember one of the first few times we were sparring; one of the instructors commented on the way I was bouncing, saying "You're not on the streets."

That almost sounds like techniques from outside of karate are not allowed.

 

[wab25]

What I've noticed in myself, and others who come in to the dojo with either prior training in other martial art or who've grown up in environments where they've had to scrap, is that the new guys tend stick to the techniques that have been taught to them in karate so far.

I guess I was wrong. You are right, martial artists only spar against other martial artist who fight like they do. Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Rusty B]

I guess I was wrong. You are right, martial artists only spar against other martial artist who fight like they do. Thanks for setting me straight.

Huh?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Huh?

Now you know how the rest of us feel reading your posts.

 

[Rusty B]

Now you know how the rest of us feel reading your posts.

^^^Coming from the guy who says one can become a martial artist from watching movies.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib

getting some knowledge, that if they practice it (formally or informally) their fighting skills will be somewhat better

Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies."

As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I never said just watching a movie will be helpful. You again ignore the parts about "practice." And I never said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around. As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting skills will be somewhat better." This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist. Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.

You have purposely misrepresented my comments many times. Have you no pride in your reputation, or just happy being a troll? I don't know if your malicious misquoting others here violates any rules of this chat site, but it is certainly not becoming of anyone in the martial arts and insults the intelligence of everyone else here.

You have accused both Buka and myself of having something personal against you. Can't speak for Buka (maybe too nice a guy) but you make it easy for me to have contempt for you. You have no honor.

My apologies to all others for indulging my personal feelings in this matter. Just wanted to set the record straight.

 

[drop bear]

Huh? I honestly don't understand what you are asking. Here is my original post:
This has been a discussion before on what being "trained" means. Many career criminals practice and train techniques that have worked for them even though they have no "formal training" of going to a school. There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques. There is also the practice of "slap fighting" used by many to practice their hand techniques that is a form of sparring.

Someone posted a comment that what I was referring to was "Jailhouse Rock", which is what I replied to specifically that I wasn't talking about that (the quote you quoted).

I don't think boxing or wrestling is the province of rich people. I think both have a history of being done by all groups of people, at least here in the USA.

Ok. Criminals generally come from poor communities. Especially violent criminals. It is a socio-economic thing.

In poor communities there is a tendency to learn Martial arts. Boxing and wrestling in the old prize fighting days. Capoeira and bjj in the favelas. There are still silat gangs running around Indonesia.

Criminals and Martial arts are a thing

Possibly more than rich people and Martial arts. Which is a fairly new development i think.

 

[Rusty B]

Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies."

As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I never said just watching a movie will be helpful. You again ignore the parts about "practice." And I never said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around. As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting skills will be somewhat better." This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist. Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.

You have purposely misrepresented my comments many times. Have you no pride in your reputation, or just happy being a troll? I don't know if your malicious misquoting others here violates any rules of this chat site, but it is certainly not becoming of anyone in the martial arts and insults the intelligence of everyone else here.

You have accused both Buka and myself of having something personal against you. Can't speak for Buka (maybe too nice a guy) but you make it easy for me to have contempt for you. You have no honor.

My apologies to all others for indulging my personal feelings in this matter. Just wanted to set the record straight.

LOL, unless you rescind what you said about movies... your foot is still in your mouth. All you're doing is trying to out different spins on it in an attempt to not make it sound stupid.

And it's not working.

 

[Buka]

Since you still need help reading, Rusty, I have gone back and actually quoted just a couple of my posts on this thread (there are a couple more on another thread) which you did not do, that prove you are editing and taking out of context my comments to support your absurd position that I say you can "become a martial artist from watching movies."

As anyone (without a twisted agenda) can plainly read in both quotes, I never said just watching a movie will be helpful. You again ignore the parts about "practice." And I never said one could become a martial artist by watching or playing around. As my second quote plainly shows, I said "if they practice...their fighting skills will be somewhat better." This is a far cry from becoming a martial artist. Yet, you feel free to change the intended substance of my posts.

You have purposely misrepresented my comments many times. Have you no pride in your reputation, or just happy being a troll? I don't know if your malicious misquoting others here violates any rules of this chat site, but it is certainly not becoming of anyone in the martial arts and insults the intelligence of everyone else here.

You have accused both Buka and myself of having something personal against you. Can't speak for Buka (maybe too nice a guy) but you make it easy for me to have contempt for you. You have no honor.

My apologies to all others for indulging my personal feelings in this matter. Just wanted to set the record straight.[/QUOT
That's six months worth of experience talking you know.

 

[Buka]

That's six months worth of hard learned experience talking.

 

[Rusty B]

That's six months worth of hard learned experience talking.

Looks like you've just revealed your motive behind asking the question. But if you think you're going to silence me with that, you've got another thing coming.

But that's alright, because I'm about to make you my girlfriend if you want to go there.

If that's the face you really making at home, I've got something I can put in that mouth of yours.

 

[drop bear]

By the way. Silat banned in Indonesia because they were having a kung fu hustle style war with each other.

East Timor bans local martial art, pencak silat, amid violence

 

[isshinryuronin]

But that's alright, because I'm about to make you my girlfriend if you want to go there.

Buka, it looks like you've made a special friend. I'm jealous.

Moderator, I did not quote Rusty B's next sentence, but it seems it should be enough to get rid of this guy who showed his true colors.