Is America a Police State?

btw...

don't think that my political views completely match Rep. Ron Paul.

Some things I agree with and think are dead on:

"Terror and fear are used to achieve complacency and obedience, especially when citizens are deluded into believing they are still a free people. The changes, they are assured, will be minimal, short-lived, and necessary, such as those that occur in times of a declared war. Under these conditions, most citizens believe that once the war is won, the restrictions on their liberties will be reversed. For the most part, however, after a declared war is over, the return to normalcy is never complete. In an undeclared war, without a precise enemy and therefore no precise ending, returning to normalcy can prove illusory."

I agree with a lot of what he says. Somethings, though, I think he is "almost right" on, example:

"Because government pays for much of our health care, it's conveniently argued that any habits or risk-taking that could harm one's health are the prerogative of the federal government, and are to be regulated by explicit rules to keep medical-care costs down. This same argument is used to require helmets for riding motorcycles and bikes."

Government DOES NOT pay for much of our health care. Insurance companies, however, do, and they are the ones who ensure through lobbying that medical care costs are kept down.

Other things I believe are pretty off-base:

"Economic threats against business establishments are notorious. Rules and regulations from the EPA, the ADA, the SEC, the LRB, OSHA, etc. terrorize business owners into submission, and those charged accept their own guilt until they can prove themselves innocent. Of course, it turns out it's much more practical to admit guilt and pay the fine. This serves the interest of the authoritarians because it firmly establishes just who is in charge."


Anyways, I just thought I'd clarify.
:asian:
 
If it is one then police states really aren't bad.
If its becoming one well I will have to wait and see but somehow I doubt it will be that bad.
 
I have to agree with him....and say, I believe he's right on target.

Here in Buffalo, we are being graced by the presence of our Imperious Leader. The "Free Speech" zones have been established, and many individuals have been ordered to stay in their homes while his Royalness visits us. Around a dozen school kids were left to fend for themselves today as a result since their school bus was denied access to the 'Safe Zone". So much for "No Child Left Behind".

Buffalo News: http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20040420/1018200.asp
WIVB TV: http://www.wivb.com/Global/story.asp?S=1796974

The area in question, contains several schools as well as a college.

Western New Yorkers United Against Bush will be staging a protest.
(Buffalo, NY, April 19, 2004) - - The President won't be receiving a warm welcome from some Western New Yorkers Tuesday.
The coalition "Western New Yorkers United Against Bush" is planning a demonstration outside Kleinhans Tuesday.

Organizers say they're protesting the President's economic policy, the war and the Patriot Act which they believe sacrifices liberty for security.

Makeshift fences have been put up outside Kleinhans to keep the demonstrators away from the President.
Click to expand...
Now, that bit of local rhetoric aside, I have to agree with Rep. Paul. His concerns echo my own. The 'panic' than ensued after the 9/11 attacks opened the doors to a huge amount of abuses by certain groups, and anyone who stood against them was branded 'unamerican'. Even here, daring to question the 'CIC' while we are 'at war' is looked down upon.

Its not a question of ifs..but, can.
Can we reverse the course of this ship, and return American to being a shining light of freedom and oportunity to the world?
 

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Of course for me I don't really have to worry as much as some pepole about if it becomes a police state. I'm just your average person who the system won't kepp down as much as for other pepole. I feel like living apathetically to others at the moment it won't hurt me.
I'm only half serious. or maybe only 1/4 or an 1/8th serous.
But at the moment I do feel kind of apathetic towards everybody. Thats another story for another time though.
 
someguy said:
Of course for me I don't really have to worry as much as some pepole about if it becomes a police state. I'm just your average person who the system won't kepp down as much as for other pepole. I feel like living apathetically to others at the moment it won't hurt me.
I'm only half serious. or maybe only 1/4 or an 1/8th serous.
But at the moment I do feel kind of apathetic towards everybody. Thats another story for another time though.
Click to expand...
I think we've all had times that the "I don't give a damn about anything" feeling has taken over. I know I have. It's human nature. Some are more empathetic than others and many are indeed out for number one. These times for me tend to correlate directly to how many different things are going down the tubes at once. It's a survival thing. Personally I think empathy is a luxury (while it may still be instictual to a point...we are pack animals). You'll get no grief from me for feeling like that for a while.
 
You might live in a police state if:

You have a curfew and violating it means getting shot on sight or arrested (and not just because a local community wants to discourage youth violence or vandalism)

You have to obtain permission to leave the state, country for any reason

You have to fear impressment into military service unilaterally (not talking drafting, but compulsary service)

You have laws that limit the number and gender of children you can birth or take care of at all.

You are being told what music, literature, art.... is legal and any violation is punishable by imprisonment and/or death

You can not speak out against the government in any way, and choosing to do so will result in imprisonment and/or death

Historical examples exist of real Police states, this is just a frustating period of two general sides to an issue: Which should take priority right now, civil liberties at the expense of security or security at the expense of civil liberties?

Sprinkle in a little "I hate Bush" and that is the make up of the current Sheeit Sandwich that we are chewing on right now.
 
Well no, we are not a police state, but I can appreciate the hyperbole. A police state is one that the Soviet Union or the Third Reich had. And yes, we are taking steps in that direction. Some call it globalization, some call it socialism, and some even call it progressive. But the facts remain when the government take a larger and larger role in everyday life, we slip into captivity.

But we first must look at the root cause, and that cause, is we allow it to happen.We allow the governement to dictate what kind of schools we should have, what will be taught in these schools. We insist the government take care of us when we retire. We demand they pay for our medical costs and our prescriptions. We demand and demand, but we fail to count the costs of satifying these demands. That cost is becoming servile to the government. No longer do we take responsibility for ourselves and our families.

I remember when we started to use Social Security numbers for all sorts of identification. There were warnings of misuse, fraud, government control, but those warnings were labeled as silly or unfounded. Now you can't even get a bank account or buy a car without one. It seems the answer to every problem is more government intrusion. More gun laws are passed, and yet gun crimes only increase where these laws are the strictest. Here in California, Workmans Comp insurance is 23% of EVERY employees salary , mandated by the state, and yet these laws only sap our economy and drive business away.

We look the other way on illegal immigration because it benefits us economically. We pay less for food, housing and all sorts of consumer services, yet we ***** and moan that they are here and they give us lower prices.

The responsibility of the government is dictated by the constituiton, and that responsibility to ensure freedom and to defend our country. Not to provide entitlements because the electorate demands them. Now, granted the best of intentions may have been at the heart of these entitlements, but the execution of them has failed miserably. What goverment is a model of efficiency? Have you been to the DMV? or the state run hospitals? or even NASA? all these governement entities cost at LEAST double of what they should be. We are slipping deeper and deeper into captivity at the hands of our own government. One day we will wake up (a little armed revolution is good thing now and then- Thomas Jefferson) and turn back the tide, or find ourselves like the Soviet Union. Inefficient, fraudulent, corrupt and failing.
 
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Ummmm...that was to keep vehicles from parking on the street. I had people lining the sidewalks at my traffic post.
 
Police state or "Too many regulations" state? The police get the blame because they get the job of enforcing the laws that come down the pipe. Dont write enough cell phone use tickets and the papers print your statistics and the citizens call in complaints...where are the police when you need them? Why arent the police enforcing this/that law? Some of the times its like a "no win" situation. Some unfortunate person gets killed and a new law pops up...whos to blame?? In a large part we are. Politicians do what they think will get them re-elected.
 
Tgace said:
Police state or "Too many regulations" state? The police get the blame because they get the job of enforcing the laws that come down the pipe. Dont write enough cell phone use tickets and the papers print your statistics and the citizens call in complaints...where are the police when you need them? Why arent the police enforcing this/that law? Some of the times its like a "no win" situation. Some unfortunate person gets killed and a new law pops up...whos to blame?? In a large part we are. Politicians do what they think will get them re-elected.
Click to expand...

The term "police state" isn't a statement or slam against actual "police." (So no Tom, I am not commin' after ya! lol :p ) A "Police State" means a state that rules in a totalitarian fashion through the use of force.

Now, "force" can be a variety of things. It doesn't have to mean getting shot on the streets for disobedience. It could be anything to excessive fines for "disobedience", to jail time, to conviscation of property, or whatever. Basically, it could mean that we need permission from the government for nearly all of our activities, or we risk penelties. It is where our "rights" are replaced by "privilages."

So yea...it is basically a police state is a "too many regulations on our citizens" state, just the element of "force" is in place if we don't obey the excessive regulation on our civil liberties.

btw...I don't think that actual Law Enforcement is the problem. Although they may find themselves as an instrument for taking away freedoms, they aren't the cause or the problem. Cops are just doing their jobs, which is to enforce the laws. It is the policy makers themselves and the special interests that pull their strings that I have a problem with. I just wanted to clarify this; my intention isn't to have the focus of this thread degenerate into a slam on LEO. :asian:
 
:asian:

IMHO some of the blame can be spread all around...everybody has their pet peeve that seems to turn into a new law. Its just the nature of the system. People need to stand up (and vote) for their views so we arent all lead by the "vocal few".
 
loki09789 said:
Sprinkle in a little "I hate Bush" and that is the make up of the current Sheeit Sandwich that we are chewing on right now.
Click to expand...

Do you think this degredation of our civil liberties is limited to Bush's term in office?

I don't think that we are living in a police state. Not in the way it has been described. I think the societal controls in place in our country are much more subtle. The powerful keep their power and the people are kept in a place where they just don't care. That is not a police state.

Is it freedom? We certainly have more freedom then many places on the planet. Could it be better? Sure. It's getting to the point where the only way one can participate in this society is with copius amounts of money or debt. Perhaps we should call it a corporate state...

So, police state, not really. Our rulers leave small tracks on our freedom. Yet, if you threaten this velvet structure...you will find the steel underneath.
 
The part that really annoys me is this:
Voting turnouts continue to drop.

This country was started with only wealthy white landowners having a voice. It was extended to white males...then black males...then women...all in the course of a little over 100 yrs. Great progress.. Now, all citizens over 18, regardless of gender, race or creed can vote.

Yet, voting is at an all time low.

Why?

The thought that the voice doesn't count.

History shows that democracies in danger of losing their freedom register frightening low voter turnouts. In thriving democracies, people vote in large numbers and the people's voice remains supreme.

The less involved people are in understanding what their government is doing, the greater the chances for abuse by those in power.

IF! the US is heading down the road to police state...it is -OUR- fault. Because "We The People" have stopped taking our so called leaders to task, and holding them accountable. We hide behind the idea of 'standing behind our president in this time of war', yet look the other way while the FBI is authorized to do whatever they wish, and local police forces are allowed to suspend the 'search warrent' rules. You're a cop? Want to seach that house? Just write it up as "suspected terroristic threat'. Its now legal to bust in, smash the place up and take what ya want....all thanks to the so called "Patriot Act".


My suggestion: Get off your lazy asses, learn what is actually going on in this country and not just by listening to the soundbytes, and -vote-.

Don't vote based on what I say...do your own research, be an educated person and make up your own mind.

Start here:
http://www.voteamericavote.com/

I then suggest you read about the Bush victory in 2004 here:
http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html


Read. Learn. Vote.
While you still can.
 
I get a little nervous (or optimistic) when locally I see the librarians, libertarians, greens, unions, migrant groups, anti-tax, people, gun-rights people, pro-lifers and the ACLU working with our Republican Senator and Congressman to fight the Patriot Act.

When you get that many diverse groups in this little backwater working together, there seems to be a pretty big problem with the Patriot Act.
 
Kaith Rustaz said:
Yet, voting is at an all time low.

Why?

The thought that the voice doesn't count.

History shows that democracies in danger of losing their freedom register frightening low voter turnouts. In thriving democracies, people vote in large numbers and the people's voice remains supreme.
Click to expand...

Power is addicting, those with it wish to keep it. Does voting cause social change or does social upheaval? Is the ballot box nothing but a tool to bleed the energy from the populace...energy that could be spent in revolt? What would happen if everyone walk off their jobs and into the streets? Who loses?

In a police state, it eventually happens. That is why they fail. How are we kept in our places?

Also, who loses when people are educated? Would we throw out our bondsmen in favor of a new way of life or would we just accept a new figurehead on the old idol?

In the 1960s, my parents went to a four year university for 300 dollars. People were more informed and the message of justice was easier to disseminate. When people hit the streets, our elected officials acted. Not before.

So, what exactly is it that changes society? What is it that the elite fears? Is the "police state" that so many are claiming, really just a tool of dissent suppression through mass distraction?

:idunno:
 
Like most laws it has some really good stuff wrapped around some bad stuff.

Sharing of intelligence, streamlining of wiretaps (in the day and age of cell phones, warrants for taps on individual accounts/lines are useless due to the ease of changing phones), addressing the issue of how you hold a terrorist that may have access to large sums of $$ for bail and then split, the issue of streamlining warrants that cross state lines, all need to be addressed.Addressing them quickly to prevent future attacks and not corrupting our constitution at the same time is a problem.
 
Kaith Rustaz said:
The part that really annoys me is this:
Voting turnouts continue to drop.

This country was started with only wealthy white landowners having a voice. It was extended to white males...then black males...then women...all in the course of a little over 100 yrs. Great progress.. Now, all citizens over 18, regardless of gender, race or creed can vote.

Yet, voting is at an all time low.

Why?

The thought that the voice doesn't count.

History shows that democracies in danger of losing their freedom register frightening low voter turnouts. In thriving democracies, people vote in large numbers and the people's voice remains supreme.

The less involved people are in understanding what their government is doing, the greater the chances for abuse by those in power.

IF! the US is heading down the road to police state...it is -OUR- fault. Because "We The People" have stopped taking our so called leaders to task, and holding them accountable. We hide behind the idea of 'standing behind our president in this time of war', yet look the other way while the FBI is authorized to do whatever they wish, and local police forces are allowed to suspend the 'search warrent' rules. You're a cop? Want to seach that house? Just write it up as "suspected terroristic threat'. Its now legal to bust in, smash the place up and take what ya want....all thanks to the so called "Patriot Act".


My suggestion: Get off your lazy asses, learn what is actually going on in this country and not just by listening to the soundbytes, and -vote-.

Don't vote based on what I say...do your own research, be an educated person and make up your own mind.

Start here:
http://www.voteamericavote.com/

I then suggest you read about the Bush victory in 2004 here:
http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html


Read. Learn. Vote.
While you still can.
Click to expand...

Who said that those of us (me particularly) was hiding behind my choice, as an American btw, to reserve publicly expressed opinion and outcry in venues that do nothing but let me vent as 'hiding behind' anything? I did say that I am a contributing voter, keeping myself informed and am/have taken actions that I see as productive but at the same time don't send a message to those 'heroes' risking their lives that I am downing them or their effort. There is a difference, I know the difference. Do you?

I never said that YOU had to follow the same philosophy. I did express my disapproval of those who are confusing their right to express themselves with good judgement and 'protesting' as venting. That does not mean that I am telling you what to do, it does mean that I am expressing my opinion.

Now that opinion is being twisted into 'hiding behind' statements. Calling me a coward? Non Participant? Apathetic? I have been in the minority in these political discussions, yet I have continued to present. I have been criticised, misquoted, misinterpreted, called UnAmerican by my actions.....but at the same time been told that my contributions are respected, admired and that I am/have been among those worthy of the title 'hero' according to the definitions presented.... but the institution that I swore oaths to the culture that I am reinforcing and purpetuating through education is corrupt and going to hell in a hand basket.... the duality is distressing.

Funny how religion and politics bring out the animal in people:) when they are philosophically the markings of 'civilization' :)

Thinking critically, as opposed to simply reading and injesting information, means that you can interpret the information, the source and the intention that bringing out this information is going to accomplish. Thinking critically means weighing the timing, tone and language of any opinion you intend to express.
 
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