"Interesting" thread follow up

[loki09789]

Should anyone have to say anything about their family life?

Before anyone gets all upset, I didn't realized Tim didn't log off before I made my post.

Janice

So Tim was logged in and still hasn't responded?

On the topic, Bart makes a good point about a 'minority' of users, but from the little I am getting, that minority is a living heritage because the PI military unit that bears the 'jungle bolo' - or what ever the term/language being used by the unit is - that the Presas family is credited with instructing their forefathers to use during WWII is still a part of the unit's 'signature' - much like the NCO sword or the officers Mameluke sword in the USMC.

Does anyone have any contacts that could get 'horses mouth' info from the unit or at least a veteran of the unit?

Another thing to consider is that linguistics is really far more meaningful in "transliteration" than "literal translation" so RP could have shorted handed or did a closest fit term use from PI (pick your language) to English.

There were other points in the original thread that warrent discussion: The influence of the various RP system resume on MA, and which one was a greater influence during certain periods and while he was instructing certain areas/countries.

It makes sense that he would use a blade emphasis in the PI only because it was such a commonly accepted part of the culture. That would put a different spin on MA from PI relative to those who learned it in the West. In an earlier thread, I remember someone referring to Largo abanico as "Planting rice movement" as a cultural reference that would be more meaningful to PI natives than those from the west.

Westerners would be more comfortable with picking up MA if RP emphasised his own Karate background as the intro/linking art to get people into MA. Plus the stick and 'forms' approach would be within the comfort zone of Trad art types. In the end, it is up to the individual to take what ever the starting point is and let it lead them through the concepts and important movements of the system.

What would MA people consider the core of MA that someone would have to master in order to understand the larger concepts that the drills and movements are meant to reveal?

 

[bart]

Hey There,

The Bisaya - Tagalog thing is complicated and resonates on several different levels. For one thing GM Presas made a name for himself in Manila, not in the Visayas. In the Visayas he was relatively unknown until he became famous in the north. In Manila they speak Tagalog. So if he wanted to teach, the students would understand Tagalog better than anything else. But also the use of Tagalog is pretty political.

Pilipino is the official name of the national language, alongside English and Spanish. It is based on Tagalog but it contains elements of other dialects and is grammatically simpler and more standardized than traditional Tagalog which has great differences between regional subdialects. Also with the institution of Pilipino as the national language it became literary and academic. Other dialects in the Philippines are not treated that way. In the state supported academic environments of the universities and schools where GM Presas made his name he could use Pilipino, English, or Spanish. But because the art is truly Filipino the idea of using a language native to one of the colonial masters was somewhat "unpatriotic". So he chose to do it in Pilipino.

Some of his terms are no doubt "Filipinized" Spanish, but where he could, he used Pilipino. Also this meant that his art could be understood all over the Philippines and not just in one area. No doubt that all over the Philippines people would much rather have things in their own dialect but people are actually much more accepting of having to know multiple languages than people are here in the US. And they understand why it would have to be in the standard business language of Pilipino than in the dialect of Illongo that's particular to their village.

Anyway, it's a pretty tough topic and there are many answers. That's just my take.

 

[Cruentus]

The PI terminology RP used here in the US was Taglog.

Now, what his 1st language was, I do not know. He was versed in many languages, English being far from first.

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

So Tim was logged in and still hasn't responded?

No, the computer that he uses is ALWAYS logged on. Are you trying to start something? :idunno:

 

[Cruentus]

Question: what is this thread supposed to be about?

I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response?

Please take no offense from my question or comments. I am really just wondering if that is what we should do here...

PAUL

 

[loki09789]

No, the computer that he uses is ALWAYS logged on. Are you trying to start something? :idunno:

If it is always logged on, how could you 'not realize' that Tim had not logged off? People are creatures of habit and routine so I guess you just forgot to check to see if Tim was logged off, like you would have to normally (and since you are making a point of posting as yourself regularly) if it is always logged on.

Starting something? No. Observation? Yes. I posted to the topic, if you want to discuss the personal, please use the PM as Bart suggested.

 

[loki09789]

Question: what is this thread supposed to be about?

I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response?

Please take no offense from my question or comments. I am really just wondering if that is what we should do here...

PAUL

I think we can continue discussions as long as we leave room at the table for Tim's comments, when he decides to jump in with one.

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

If it is always logged on, how could you 'not realize' that Tim had not logged off? People are creatures of habit and routine so I guess you just forgot to check to see if Tim was logged off, like you would have to normally (and since you are making a point of posting as yourself regularly) if it is always logged on.

Starting something? No. Observation? Yes. I posted to the topic, if you want to discuss the personal, please use the PM as Bart suggested.

I hardly consider 31 posts since 2001 regular! However, sometimes I start reading a thread, get caught up in a thought and forget to log in as myself. We can't all be perfect!

Janice

 

[Tgace]

To kind of stay on topic...just as there are hunting rifles and military rifles, I dont see whay there wouldnt be ag. bolos and fighting bolos.

 

[Tgace]

Is there a missing post here? Where'd Tgace's quote come from? Where is this going? I just don't understand. Why is this a big deal? I thought everyone was discussing in the first place...I didn't see badness there. What did I miss? I should probably just shut up, but I'm certain I'm not the only clueless idiot. Am I? God I hope not.

Hey flat, guess I ticked somebody off ( I know who, but it would be childish of me to cry about it) now I guess I face the consequences of plummeting rep and removed posts.

 

[Dan Anderson]

No, the computer that he uses is ALWAYS logged on. Janice

I can verify that. When I stayed with Tim, it was always on.

Question: what is this thread supposed to be about? I thought this was a new thread so Datu Tim could give his opinion the E-digest topics. If so, then shouldn't we all shut up for about the next week here, and wait for his response? Please take no offense from my question or comments. I am really just wondering if that is what we should do here...Tulisan

You answered it. Shut up and wait? No. Continue informed discussions or relate opinions? Certainly. Have a food fight? No.

Moderatingly yours,
Dan Anderson, self appointed and thoroughly powerless quasi moderator

 

[Joe Eccleston]

This clarifies a lot, bart... I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them. I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).:asian:

Hey There,

The Bisaya - Tagalog thing is complicated and resonates on several different levels. For one thing GM Presas made a name for himself in Manila, not in the Visayas. In the Visayas he was relatively unknown until he became famous in the north. In Manila they speak Tagalog. So if he wanted to teach, the students would understand Tagalog better than anything else. But also the use of Tagalog is pretty political.

Pilipino is the official name of the national language, alongside English and Spanish. It is based on Tagalog but it contains elements of other dialects and is grammatically simpler and more standardized than traditional Tagalog which has great differences between regional subdialects. Also with the institution of Pilipino as the national language it became literary and academic. Other dialects in the Philippines are not treated that way. In the state supported academic environments of the universities and schools where GM Presas made his name he could use Pilipino, English, or Spanish. But because the art is truly Filipino the idea of using a language native to one of the colonial masters was somewhat "unpatriotic". So he chose to do it in Pilipino.

Some of his terms are no doubt "Filipinized" Spanish, but where he could, he used Pilipino. Also this meant that his art could be understood all over the Philippines and not just in one area. No doubt that all over the Philippines people would much rather have things in their own dialect but people are actually much more accepting of having to know multiple languages than people are here in the US. And they understand why it would have to be in the standard business language of Pilipino than in the dialect of Illongo that's particular to their village.

Anyway, it's a pretty tough topic and there are many answers. That's just my take.

 

[KenpoTess]

I must be getting old.. I can't read Joe's font

 

[Dan Anderson]

I must be getting old.. I can't read Joe's font

Joe,

Larger font size, please. How can we argue with you if we can't read what you post?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This was part of another thread that was closed, but after talking to the MT Assistant Admin he felt it would be appropriate for my response to go here.

Bram:

In no way am I trying to slam Bram. If I wanted to attack him, I would just come out and do it. I have supported his efforts in the past including letting him use my school for a seminar at no cost to him. We ALL have skeletons and I know where most of them are buried. I choose NOT to bring this up in an attempt to coexist peacefully. When I’m pushed or harassed I can or will bring this type of info to light (this is a general statement not directed at Bram or this topic). I haven’t seen the video. I don’t know who he trained with to get the material or who he might have interviewed. Bram’s a good martial artist and I assume it’s a good product.


Presas family art:

This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between Presas family arnis and Modern Arnis. Remy’s first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military. From The WMAA sight: http://www.wmarnis.com/remy.html

Grandmaster Presas, or "The Professor" as he prefers to be called, spent much of his youth in the mountains of the Philippines, hiding from the invading Japanese army. His father was Lieutenant Jose Presas, a US army officer whose duty was to train the troops in the ancient bladed arts of his native land.
The Professor began training in martial arts at the tender age of five. Filipino tradition dictates that it is the duty of the grandfather to pass on the family arts to his grandchildren. Everyday for four years, Remy's grandfather, Leon Presas, would teach him the intricacies of Ochoo, the figure eight style and Palis - Palis, the art of the pass. Remy learned quickly, moving and striking like a natural.

Now let’s talk about this for a moment. Jose Presas was a military man teaching the troops. During the war it would make more sense to teach blade work than stick work. During the WMAA 2004 Buffalo training camp we had the honor to work with Punong Guro Myrlino P. Hufana. During a lunch break a couple of us had the opportunity to ask him a couple question about his family system. What he had told us was that his family system was a stick art, but during WW2 it was taught as a blade art. When someone asked him why, he told us that his father told him that bolos were a better tool against guns than sticks were.

This makes me wonder.
1. Did Jose Presas teach the soldiers a course that he developed or a predetermined military course?
2. If it was his family art that he taught, was it a bladed system or a stick art modified for a bladed tool?
3. What was the program Leon Presas taught based on? Stick or blade?
4. How much of the family art was in Modern Arnis before Remy’s passing?
5. What did the family art look like before, during and after WW2?

I don’t have the answers; however I do feel that this is an interesting topic and will research it further.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This clarifies a lot, bart... I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them. I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).:asian:

Please change font size. :asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Bram:

In no way am I trying to slam Bram. (I choose not to quote full reply - DA)

thanks, Tim. That answers my own personal question.

Presas family art:

This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between Presas family arnis and Modern Arnis.

Absolutely!. Modern Arnis is a composite of the arts Remy Presas assimilated in his training. I think the family art and balintawak eskrima, whether the Moncal/Maranga variants, or Bacon original, form the fundamental roots of Modern Arnis.

Remy’s first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military. From The WMAA sight: http://www.wmarnis.com/remy.html

Now let’s talk about this for a moment. Jose Presas was a military man teaching the troops. During the war it would make more sense to teach blade work than stick work. During the WMAA 2004 Buffalo training camp we had the honor to work with Punong Guro Myrlino P. Hufana. During a lunch break a couple of us had the opportunity to ask him a couple question about his family system. What he had told us was that his (Myrlino's - DA) family system was a stick art, but during WW2 it was taught as a blade art. When someone asked him why, he told us that his father told him that bolos were a better tool against guns than sticks were.

This makes me wonder.
1. Did Jose Presas teach the soldiers a course that he developed or a predetermined military course?
2. If it was his family art that he taught, was it a bladed system or a stick art modified for a bladed tool?
3. What was the program Leon Presas taught based on? Stick or blade?
4. How much of the family art was in Modern Arnis before Remy’s passing?
5. What did the family art look like before, during and after WW2?

I don’t have the answers; however I do feel that this is an interesting topic and will research it further.
:asian:

Good historical questions here. I think the answer lies back in the PI. I think SM Roland Dantes might have some of them as well as GM Ernesto Presas. I, for one, am very interested in pre-1974 (read that as pre-US) Modern Arnis. I've found that even as an American Freestyle Karate player, knowledge of history has really helped my own understanding of the art. I think that same understanding of the historical roots of Modern Arnis will do the same for my MA. Good post - good questions to research. That closes this thread for me.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Joe Eccleston]

This clarifies a lot, bart... I was wondering, among the many Bisaya (Cebuano) eskrimadors you've trained under, were they pro-Pilipino (Tagalog), or were they more 'regionalistic' (and spoke, or tried to speak only in Bisaya and English, by-passing Tagalog (Pilipino) all together)? The majority of the people I train with (my good friends) are Bisaya and there seems to be a very "anti-Tagalog" perspective from them. I don't know many Tagalog eskrimadors, it'd be great to hear more from you about this (learning more about this cultural nuance).


(sorry, Guys... I could read it perfectly in my screen.:idunno: )

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

(sorry, Guys... I could read it perfectly in my screen.:idunno: )

No problem Joe.

 

[Guro Harold]

This makes me wonder.
1. Did Jose Presas teach the soldiers a course that he developed or a predetermined military course?
2. If it was his family art that he taught, was it a bladed system or a stick art modified for a bladed tool?
3. What was the program Leon Presas taught based on? Stick or blade?
4. How much of the family art was in Modern Arnis before Remy’s passing?
5. What did the family art look like before, during and after WW2?

I don’t have the answers; however I do feel that this is an interesting topic and will research it further.
:asian:

Great questions, Tim!

In some of his videos, GM Presas did reference his Grandfather for some of techniques like Palis-Palis.

From what I have heard, GM Giron who was an WWII war hero also taught troops blade oriented techniques based on Cinco Terros. Someone please correct this if it is in-accurate.

Palusut