Intent Yi (意)

[Wing Woo Gar]

Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant and has nothing at all to do with my stated interest in the subject of this discussion.

- motorists swerving into an oncoming lane for whatever reason, causing an innocent driver to put their vehicle in the ditch, or worse, to avoid a collision without any contact between the two vehicles involved.

- people in sparring or sportive activity, or otherwise involved in some kind of conflict where one of the principals flinches or expresses some other overt 'intent' causing the other person to jump back, or trip and fall over their own feet or an obstacle.

-demonstrations with which you are taking issue that were either fake or genuine.

Again, those instances, be they spontaneous or contrived, are irrelevant.


Do you have any suggestions as to how one might structure a training exercise around the ideas of isolating, and experimenting with, intent interactively in such a way that it lends deeper insight to the subtleties of its suggestive and responsive powers?

Suggestive is the operative word. Yes, I have particular thoughts on the subject. It is relevant, but not in the way the videos depict. I have doubts it can be so easily translated to people in general, and certainly not without the physical training component. Experience with the experienced teacher is everything. We can debate about the real thing without doubting one another’s personal experiences.

 

[Marsha Larts]

Suggestive is the operative word. Yes, I have particular thoughts on the subject. It is relevant, but not in the way the videos depict. I have doubts it can be so easily translated to people in general, and certainly not without the physical training component. Experience with the experienced teacher is everything. We can debate about the real thing without doubting one another’s personal experiences.

It would be great to read your thoughts on that.

No need for debate if we can find common ground. It's all about that.

Yes, the physical training component. Could you outline how you would approach the ideas in that vein so that people can get a real, physical sense of what is being developed?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A

It would be great to read your thoughts on that.

No need for debate if we can find common ground. It's all about that.

Yes, the physical training component. Could you outline how you would approach the ideas in that vein so that people can get a real, physical sense of what is being developed?

Do continuous repetitive practice of the form. Why do they need to get a real physical sense of development from me? Real progress is self evident. Do the work consistently and get good correction from a competent instructor. The mentality of “Getting” is counterproductive. The development of ability is a side effect. When this idea of achieving ability is thrown off and abandoned then the practice deepens and our reasons for the practice become the practice itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can they do it while I hit them? Can they use it to prevent me hitting them?

I always have concern about the combat usage of this Yi stuff. What will happen if your opponent points finger at you and you just kick him? Your leg is longer than his arm.

If you have the training that any time you see a punch coming toward your face, you always move in and use your arm to deflect it, your opponent's punch will invite you to move in instead of to move back.

Your opponent tries to apply Yi on you, you respond back with much strong Yi instead. If you opponent points his finger at you, you'll knock down his arm along with his finger.

do you believe one can send a noncompliant opponent flying through the air with a mere touch? With no touch?

When Qi master 刘木森 Liu Mu-Sen demonstrated "push" on the stage in San Francisco 1979, I got on the stage and wanted to be his partner. The hose Brendan Lai pulled me down from that stage. In that demo, 6 guys touched on Liu's body parts. Liu used Qi to send all 6 guys flew away in 6 different directions.

Many years ago, a Qi master came to Austin, He charged $450 per person and used his Qi to move a room full of people like zombies. The 2nd time, he planned his trip to Austin, I challenged him if he could move me without touching, I would pay him $10,000. If he failed, he had to pay me $10,000. He cancelled his trip and did not come.

I always wanted to be on the receiving side of "push" (both touch or no touch) from any Qi master. Even today, I still have not met anybody who can do that on me yet.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A pointing finger contest between a master and a strong willed student may end up in nothing

I have tried to point my finger at my 2 lb 3 oz Yorjie dog. She didn't jump back. Why? Is my Yi not strong enough?

 

[windwalker099]

I always wanted to be on the receiving side of "push" (both touch or no touch) from any Qi master. Even today, I still have not met anybody who can do that on me yet.

But they can do it to others, yes?

The thread wasn’t really about proving whether something can or can’t be done. It’s about intent — something everyone uses indirectly — and how in some practices it’s trained and applied more directly.

How this works varies by method and teacher. Even in my teacher’s group, with people who already had decades of CMA from other practices behind them, there were long debates. Each viewing it through what they already had. practiced...


Over time, though, what once seemed questionable simply became part of the practice.

I’ve spoken with teachers like David Chin"hop gar" and Ben Lo "taiji"— both had strong views, but both relied on the same underlying framework. Always found it interesting how the same base could be interpreted so differently, with each putting limits on what could or could not be done.

 

[Appledog]

I have tried to point my finger at my 2 lb 3 oz Yorjie dog. She didn't jump back. Why? Is my Yi not strong enough?

I already told you many times, this is not Yi. Your Yi is probably stronger than most people here. Yi is as I described it earlier in the thread, although there are some things I left out because I would bring them up in the discussion that inevitably never happened.

I get it. It's more fun to torture these people who believe that you can send your yi out of your body. Because they can never actually do it.

Hey, I've bounced people out accidentally and sucked them in (fall forward, etc) accidentally many times. The realization was that it wasn't yi, it was their response to my level of skill. It was a relative response. It is not something you intend, necessarily. Specifically, it is not something you can control, only allow to happen. It's true then, that you must perform the form as if no one is there. This is something people do not want to believe, so they invent magic powers.

 

[windwalker099]

Hey, I've bounced people out accidentally and sucked them in (fall forward, etc) accidentally many times. The realization was that it wasn't yi, it was their response to my level of skill. It was a relative response.

That’s your experience — good .

IME, it happens regardless of what someone thinks.
The real question is why, how, and what is happening.

You might want to revisit the idea of the Six Harmonies (六合, liù hé). A framework helps explain why reactions like those occur.

It is not something you intend, necessarily. Specifically, it is not something you can control, only allow to happen. It's true then, that you must perform the form as if no one is there. This is something people do not want to believe, so they invent magic powers.

“Magic powers”? Is qi a magic power?

Or is it part of a framework for describing processes like "Yi"
that can be felt, trained, and expressed — whether or not one accepts the terminology.

 

[windwalker099]

some thoughts :

The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi
by Wei Shuren


Levels of Practice


Beginner Stage:
Focus on correct posture and hand movements while integrating internal principles.
Avoid rushing or trying to learn too much at once. Each movement should embody the principles of “intent first” (意在先) and “guided by intent” (以意導形).


Intermediate Stage:
Deepen understanding of internal principles and their application in movements.
Use “heart-mind energy” (心勁) to guide movements, focusing on the center of the chest as the source of power.

Advanced Stage:
Achieve a state of effortless flow, where movements and internal energy are seamlessly integrated.
Reach a level of mastery where the body becomes transparent and empty (全體透空), entering a state of transformation (化境).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I always have concern about the combat usage of this Yi stuff. What will happen if your opponent points finger at you and you just kick him? Your leg is longer than his arm.

If you have the training that any time you see a punch coming toward your face, you always move in and use your arm to deflect it, your opponent's punch will invite you to move in instead of to move back.

Your opponent tries to apply Yi on you, you respond back with much strong Yi instead. If you opponent points his finger at you, you'll knock down his arm along with his finger.




When Qi master 刘木森 Liu Mu-Sen demonstrated "push" on the stage in San Francisco 1979, I got on the stage and wanted to be his partner. The hose Brendan Lai pulled me down from that stage. In that demo, 6 guys touched on Liu's body parts. Liu used Qi to send all 6 guys flew away in 6 different directions.

Many years ago, a Qi master came to Austin, He charged $450 per person and used his Qi to move a room full of people like zombies. The 2nd time, he planned his trip to Austin, I challenged him if he could move me without touching, I would pay him $10,000. If he failed, he had to pay me $10,000. He cancelled his trip and did not come.

I always wanted to be on the receiving side of "push" (both touch or no touch) from any Qi master. Even today, I still have not met anybody who can do that on me yet.

I have experienced a few things I cannot explain, so I don’t immediately discount the possibility of some things, but not being thrown with a touch and certainly not from distance without touch.

 

[Same Trick]

I always have concern about the combat usage of this Yi stuff. What will happen if your opponent points finger at you and you just kick him? Your leg is longer than his arm.

If you have the training that any time you see a punch coming toward your face, you always move in and use your arm to deflect it, your opponent's punch will invite you to move in instead of to move back.

Your opponent tries to apply Yi on you, you respond back with much strong Yi instead. If you opponent points his finger at you, you'll knock down his arm along with his finger.

Yes, that’s what is the important point about Yi in cma practice, the solo forms practice.

There have to be an element of outside force acting upon one’s presence that one counteracts on, but it’s solo practice so one have to visualize that outer force that one will work with.
To do that correctly one have to have had a previous real interaction with that outside force.
Most of us from young childhood would know forces of push and pull so that would be the easiest visualization to work with, many schools make use of the swimming in air as in water visualization which fit the taiji practice well since the visualized medium puts “pressure” all around one’s body.
It’s this kind of practice that define the “internal” in the internal martial arts, given one do this practice with a relaxed body so the nervous system rather than the muscles per se gets to be exercised .
It’s one’s level of sensing and correct reacting that’s the aim to enhance .

 

[Same Trick]

I have tried to point my finger at my 2 lb 3 oz Yorjie dog. She didn't jump back. Why? Is my Yi not strong enough?

View attachment 33306

Yes, they have to be taught how to react to a pointing finger.

From the OP -
“The teacher talks him through it, creating a reaction.”

 

[Same Trick]

revisit the idea of the Six Harmonies (六合, liù hé). A framework helps explain why reactions like those occur.




“

which six harmonies do you have in mind ?

 

[Same Trick]

some thoughts :

The Essence of Yang Style Tai Chi
by Wei Shuren


Levels of Practice


Beginner Stage:
Focus on correct posture and hand movements while integrating internal principles.
Avoid rushing or trying to learn too much at once. Each movement should embody the principles of “intent first” (意在先) and “guided by intent” (以意導形).


Intermediate Stage:
Deepen understanding of internal principles and their application in movements.
Use “heart-mind energy” (心勁) to guide movements, focusing on the center of the chest as the source of power.

Advanced Stage:
Achieve a state of effortless flow, where movements and internal energy are seamlessly integrated.
Reach a level of mastery where the body becomes transparent and empty (全體透空), entering a state of transformation (化境).

Wei Shurens explanation on levels of practice to gain mastery is very unclear - internal principles, internal energy, doesn’t explain anything and it all sounds just “good” for introspection of the self disregarding real encounters with others

 

[windwalker099]

Yes, they have to be taught how to react to a pointing finger.

From the OP -
“The teacher talks him through it, creating a reaction.”

You seem to have misunderstood the OP clip.

The student wasn’t being “taught how to react to a pointing finger.”
The teacher was talking the student through movement and focal points,
which in turn created a reaction in the teacher.

A training method — not the application itself.

I had asked why the teachers reactions seemed different,,,Having noted the same thing with myself and observed in others over the yrs..

Most people can do what is shown, if they are coached through it by someone who can feel what is being done in order to correct the them...Once they follow the corrections they still may not feel what is happening...but still cause the reaction as shown by the teachers reactions to it... As others have mentioned

Appledog said: Hey, I've bounced people out accidentally and sucked them in (fall forward, etc) accidentally many times.

What is being shown and reacted to is no accident....

The student has no way to understand how to modulate what he does, the teacher's reactions are real...although it may take awhile for the student to really gain some understanding over it.. IME for most the work of many,many yrs...

In Taiji, it’s possible to train the external harmonies (外三合) without linking them to the internal ones (内三合). And it’s also possible to train Yi, Qi, and Shen without tying them to function, especially if the framework leans more toward refinement than usage.

The clip shows the teacher helping the student align outer structure in order to understand inner connection — extending past the contact point so the body doesn’t lock at it.

One way of training, not the only one.

 

[windwalker099]

Wei Shurens explanation on levels of practice to gain mastery is very unclear - internal principles, internal energy, doesn’t explain anything and it all sounds just “good” for introspection of the self disregarding real encounters with others

How would one clearly explain something that you (and some others here) apparently don’t practice, yet still feel free to dismiss?

The OP wasn’t meant as a philosophical puzzle, but to share a training method I’ve practiced and seen others practice. The idea was that those who work in this way — or are interested in it — might comment from their own perspective and experience.

If it’s not part of your practice, fair enough, but then it’s less about whether the explanation “makes sense” to you, and more about whether it reflects what’s actually done by those who do this type of work.

 

[Same Trick]

How would one clearly explain something that you (and some others here) apparently don’t practice, yet still feel free to dismiss?

I was just pointing out that Wei Shurens explanation on levels of practice to gain mastery is very unclear - “internal principles”, “internal energy”, doesn’t explain anything meaningful .
One can’t just say such things expecting anyone to understand.
So what is “internal principles” ?