Integrity

[Zero]

There are some kids who have zero integrity, but I believe that they are few and far between..

Steve, I personally don't have any issue with the world as it is and those around me but I do think, and acknowledge, that there is a hell of a lot wrong with it. And as for kids, the bad eggs are far from being few and far between. Maybe if you can isolate each kid, even the real do-badders, and (not with any creepo/paedo connotations!) get them alone in the woods for a week or so you can get them to shed all the BS and to find the decent human inside themselves. But I travel through areas were whole swathes of communities and estates are full of no-hoper, dugged/drunk or violent groups of young kids. Many of them I equate with sub-human (and all of their parents and family go into that subset too (I'd go as far as equating the parents to pure scum)).

Again, I ain't saying, "I wish it were like the old days, sob, sob", but I wish I could lay hands on a pair of those rose-tinted shades you got yourself. There are many brilliant kids and families out there - but there are many no-hoper or bad-*** kids with zero integrity or even desire to achieve in life and their parents to boot as well. There are a heck of a lot of dysfunctional families out there my man.

Not sure if this thread should be on the MA site or on the social-worker forum.

 

[Zero]

Tough subject. Integrity is hard to come by in our society. It's more than paying for a bag of peanuts. Principles only matter when there is an actual price you pay for following them.

Kind of, but principles matter whether there is a price to pay or not. My principles matter to me as much when I am alone (and no price to pay) as when I am with others. But I think I understand what you are saying, if when push comes to shove, your principles go out the window, well then, those principles you thought you had were never really yours... : )

 

[Zero]

OK, Sukerin, can you come clean about that picture given you posted it???

Like Steve, the picture of that chick only seems all good to me, in fact, there could only be more pictures like that as far as I'm concerned. After struggling, is it that she is surreptitiously giving you the birdie?? Even so, it seems all good.

 

[Balrog]

:lol: Have some coffee, Steve . I think you grabbed the wrong end of the stick there my friend.

Balrog, is there room on that soapbox for two? :grins:. I don't necessarily, tempting as it is, think that honour and integrity are in decline, I think that they have always been in too short supply. But I do agree that they are essential attributes of character; or at least of the character of people I want to know.

Step right on up here, brother.

I'm sorry if my OP sounded arrogant. At least one person thought it did, but that was most assuredly not my intention. I was pointing out something that happened to me, and in my case, it happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

How many of us have had a parent bring an 8 year old in for an intro lesson and within 5 minutes, the kid has told you that it is fitting and proper to lie, cheat or steal because otherwise you'll never get anything in this world? And the mother echoes that, along with the sentiment that she doesn't want me wasting her time or her kid's time teaching him "that honor ********"; she simply wants me to teach him how to kick someone else's ***. When I told her that was part and parcel of the training, she gathers the kid up and storms out. And all I could think was that the kid was gonna be dead or in jail before he was even in high school with a parental role model like that. I have that happen, then the incident at the bowling alley. Trivial as the peanuts were, the manager's reaction pointed out to me how people look at an incident like that and simply think, "SCORE! I got something for free!". And IMNSHO, that's just not right.

We, as instructors, are role models, whether we want to be or not. It's part and parcel of getting up front and leading. And if integrity is something we teach, we'd better be exhibiting it or our students will call BS on us before we know it.

 

[Sukerkin]

OK, Sukerkin, can you come clean about that picture given you posted it???

In what way, Zero? If you mean where did I find it,it's a site called Facts & Chicks - gloriously un-PC site of factoids braced with glamour {reminds me of a picture equivalent of Hot for Words :chuckles:}. If you mean why did I use it, it was to keep things light-hearted before people built up too high a head of steam being rude to each other.

 

[jks9199]

OK... Are most people mostly decent? Yep. Most will generally do the right thing, as long as it's easy enough. Make the wrong thing hard (lock your stuff in the locker at the gym, lock your cars in your driveway, etc.) and you'll keep the majority of people obeying the law. Catch enough speeders, and most people stay close to the limit. And so on.

And more people will, under pressure, rise to the occasion than you expect. There are plenty of stories out of various tragedies to show this; I'm not trying to collect them to post here.

In the big things, people generally do well. It's the petty little things, like justifying taking that extra bag of peanuts, or pocketing it when someone gives you the wrong change, where people fall down. The problem is that it's those petty things that pile up and make the day to day, not the huge tragedies. The guy cutting you off rather than letting you merge into traffic, or who lets the door slam on you instead of holding it one second longer, the server who's curt with you... All those things add up to make the day to day experience. It's something that I fight as a cop; just about EVERYBODY lies to me. They claim they didn't know they were speeding as they passed 3 cars. They swear they stopped at the stop sign... Whatever. I don't see people at their best; I see them at their worst. It's easy to become very cynical -- so I fight that. Surprisingly, I do find people being nice to each other. You have to look for it...

 

[Zero]

In what way, Zero? If you mean where did I find it,it's a site called Facts & Chicks - gloriously un-PC site of factoids braced with glamour {reminds me of a picture equivalent of Hot for Words :chuckles:}. If you mean why did I use it, it was to keep things light-hearted before people built up too high a head of steam being rude to each other.

Sorry, I read too much into that and was off looking for subliminals again...

 

[Steve]

OK... Are most people mostly decent? Yep. Most will generally do the right thing, as long as it's easy enough. Make the wrong thing hard (lock your stuff in the locker at the gym, lock your cars in your driveway, etc.) and you'll keep the majority of people obeying the law. Catch enough speeders, and most people stay close to the limit. And so on.

And more people will, under pressure, rise to the occasion than you expect. There are plenty of stories out of various tragedies to show this; I'm not trying to collect them to post here.

In the big things, people generally do well. It's the petty little things, like justifying taking that extra bag of peanuts, or pocketing it when someone gives you the wrong change, where people fall down. The problem is that it's those petty things that pile up and make the day to day, not the huge tragedies. The guy cutting you off rather than letting you merge into traffic, or who lets the door slam on you instead of holding it one second longer, the server who's curt with you... All those things add up to make the day to day experience. It's something that I fight as a cop; just about EVERYBODY lies to me. They claim they didn't know they were speeding as they passed 3 cars. They swear they stopped at the stop sign... Whatever. I don't see people at their best; I see them at their worst. It's easy to become very cynical -- so I fight that. Surprisingly, I do find people being nice to each other. You have to look for it...

First, again, if the point of the thread is that adults, particularly coaches, have influence over kids and can contribute to developing character, I agree completely.

I think I understand part of the disconnect here. It may seem as though I am looking through rose colored glasses. I think the opposite is actually true. I've worked with too many homeless people, too many drug addicts and alcoholics, and too many mentally or physically ill people who were all very, very poor to believe that anyone is a paragon of virtue. So, when I see anecdotes like the one in the OP, it's like blatant fiction to me. Perhaps it really did happen, but the implication that someone can tell from a snapshot encounter whether you're a man of integrity or not is flawed. Or said another way, if you can't think of things you've done in your life of which you are ashamed, then you are living in denial. Some people are just bad people. MOST people, however, are basically good people.

I agree with everything you say above, JKS. Completely. Which is why I get suspicious when people imply that they are above the fray. I strive to act with integrity, and I think I do. I try to model good behavior for my kids, and I hold them to a high standard. But, I'm not a paragon of virtue. I make mistakes. You all do, as well. You are not perfect angels, and the sanctimony just slays me. It's not that I think most people are great people. Rather, it's the opposite. I think people are all flawed, and I don't hold it against them. I will try to give people the benefit of the doubt and I am saddened when momentary lapses of judgement have permanent, negative consequences.

For example, I think the entire Martin/Zimmerman situation is sad. All the way around. I don't think Martin was a "bad" kid. He was an average kid, pretty typical of many kids. He did some things that weren't good, but he also did things that were good. And he made a mistake that cost him his life. Zimmerman, similarly, is not a bad guy. He's a guy with good intentions who made mistakes that he will pay for the rest of his life.

All kids make mistakes. Most adults have stories from their teenage years that end with, "Man, we were lucky we didn't get caught." Or "That was so dangerous. We're lucky no one was hurt." Or something along those lines. And most of your kids will have the same stories to tell, although you may or may not ever hear them.

And yeah. I think cops run the risk of being cynical.

 

[Tgace]

http://tgace.com/2010/04/12/109/

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[Tgace]

I think there's a bit confusion regarding the relationship between standards and behavior going on here....who's said they are perfect?

Sure Im not perfect...but I know I'm not meeting the expectations Ive set for myself. IMO too many people justify their failings...or "oh that's not so bad" them.

But I'm also Catholic sooooo.....


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