Insight - Forms to application

[JowGaWolf]

............

It's different because they're doing the drill, not a pre-arranged form from ancient China that has nothing to do with the drill.

It's not different and that's what I'm telling you.

I've even given you enough information to try it on your own so that you can see for yourself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But I would not abandon the forms since I have found them useful in building basics like structure, position, steps, and so forth, that are helpful in application. I find that this way, the students begin drilling with much better positions and kinesthetics than if they skip the forms.

You understand lol.

Especially if you are not practicing a "traditional" art and instead are looking for the absolute shortest path. But I know of no manner of training that doesn't employ repetitive routines that to the uninformed observer may seem divorced from practical application. When I watch boxers and wrestlers training, I see them doing a lot of stuff that doesn't look like what they do when competing, but they assure me that that stuff is useful.

Yeah none of this stuff looks useful lol

 

[Martial D]

Yet one of the reasons that was given to me for being kicked out the school was that I focused too much on fighting and not tradition.

Perhaps you were on the right track and should continue to push in this direction. It just seems like maybe you feel a little..guilty? And are holding on to tradition more than benefits your objective.

I get it because we are similar in that our primary focus is effective fighting from a CMA base. I also let my attachment to tradition hold me back for a while.

The thing is, if you are right and jow ga contains all the tools you need to fight effectively in 2018, wouldn't it be better to strip them down to their most effective form and train it like that rather than let traditional red tape encumber you? I'm not saying forms are useless, I'm actually a fan of them, just as long as you are building the right muscle memory.

Ie..do the forms the way you execute rather than try to execute the way the forms prescribe.

Sure, traditional jow ga guys will hate you and say your form is wrong..but then you could kick their ***.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Perhaps you were on the right track and should continue to push in this direction. It just seems like maybe you feel a little..guilty? And are holding on to tradition more than benefits your objective.

Nope. Tradition and fighting are 2 different things to me. Someone had fights came up with a collection of fighting techniques that worked for them and called it a system. I want to learn those same techniques for fighting from a particular fighting system. The person who made the system says it works and provided a library of techniques for easy memory and provide a way to train others those techniques. It's not the only way, it's just the way that worked for him and the people he trained so he passes it on. This is how I see TMA .

If I want to learn how to sweep then I don't have any choice but to learn it learn using the methods that are taught to me. When I learn it and actually understand it enough then I can create drills that help me to perform to perform the sweep better so that it blends better with my fighting strategy.

Tradition to me is a cultural thing and not a "knowing how to fight using techniques from a fighting system" thing. The real reason why people say TMA is because there is tradition in some of the aspects. For example, bowing to each other, names of rank, or bowing to a shire.. None of that has anything to do with fighting. But people blend the two as being the same and that's when things get messy.

If I want to progress within my fighting system then I can do that without offending tradition. What I can't do is approach certain people within the system the same way and treat them like they are my best friend. That part is tradition. Has nothing to do with how well I can do a technique. Too many people reach for that status and then claim that their status is kung fu.

The thing is, if you are right and jow ga contains all the tools you need to fight effectively in 2018, wouldn't it be better to strip them down to their most effective form and train it like that rather than let traditional red tape encumber you?

Nope because I don't know what's going to be effective for me until I learn how to actually use it. So I go through all the techniques so that I can learn them. If I like it and can use it well then I'll keep it if not then I'll put it on the back burner, I wont' throw it away altogether because I may talk to a karate guy that knows how to do what I can't, and he or she gives me insight which turns a sucky technique into a really good technique for me. But I won't know until I've really come to an understanding of it along with any limitations that I may not be able to overcome in working the technique successfully. I still keep it because I may teach someone who can actually use it better than I can.

do the forms the way you execute rather than try to execute the way the forms prescribe.

I do this to an extent. For example, I mention in a past post this month that Jow Ga doesn't include the fighting angles in the forms. So when ever possible I try to add those angles to the form so long as it doesn't cause me to get lost with where I am in the form. My forms look rough because I do them like I fight. It just looks like a cleaner fight and not a performance.

Sure, traditional jow ga guys will hate you and say your form is wrong.

This is fine with me as my fall back is "Well at least I know how to use it" lol. My Sifu now actually like it because he can see that I actually understand what I'm doing and not just being a human copy machine. He came out of retirement to get his other students (who are now sifu's) back to the functional Jow Ga which is really the spirit of Jow Ga according to all the fight stories about someone beating up other competitors and stopping hearts with a kick. There's only 2 stories that I know of that are about Lion Dance. The rest is about fighting so that's the direction I head in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Form to application - your application is restricted by your MA system.
2. Application to form - your form will have no limitation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Form to application - your application is restricted by your MA system.

Not true because the form is just one example of the possible applications for a technique. This is like saying that a chambered jab can only be thrown like it is thrown in the form. It is an EXAMPLE not the Only Way.

2. Application to form - your form will have no limitation.

How do you think the form was born? It was born from application? To create form before application is backwards. Form is based on what is needed in the application, so you can't create a form until you do the application. Otherwise how would you know what to put in the form?

 

[Buka]

Yeah none of this stuff looks useful lol

That video is tagged as "Basic Boxing Stance first boxing lesson".

"First" boxing lesson. I don't think that applies to this thread.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That video is tagged as "Basic Boxing Stance first boxing lesson".

"First" boxing lesson. I don't think that applies to this thread.

It doesn't. It was a response to geezer's statement about looking for the shortest path. The boxing video just shows some of the piece work that is done, focusing on stance, focusing on punches, focusing on movement. Some of the exact same things that happen in TMA systems like starting at the beginning (form or drill) versus starting at the application and working form there.

Some people can do it but that' the exception and not the norm.