Insertion points!

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay when practicing your particular style of knife work what are some of the main insertion points you are looking at when thrusting. An example might be that your style focuses on: Insertions in the neck, under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle to the heart, Armpit, Inner Thigh femoral artery insertion, etc. In IRT we cover the above and more but I was interested on other systems take on where they are inserting/thrusting.

Also if you want to how do you get there?

In IRT we utilize multiple ways of getting there from a straight direct line, indirect line, etc. Typically we are utilizing some form of traping hands with angles and movement to get to the desired place.

Of course none of the above would be used unless the encounter justified lethal force. (at least in IRT)

 

[tellner]

I'm not really comfortable going into detail about the offensive use of the knife in a public forum. Suffice it to say there are many targets, and Silat offers a number of ways to get to them.

 

[arnisador]

under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle

These are common in Modern Arnis, which didn't emphasize the anatomy of knife targets the way that knife-focused arts like Sayoc Kali do.

 

[arnisador]

under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle

These are common in Modern Arnis, which didn't emphasize the anatomy of knife targets the way that knife-focused arts like Sayoc Kali do. Part of that was the heavy emphasis on defang the snake, i.e., working in from arm cuts--we tended to focus on that a lot.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm not really comfortable going into detail about the offensive use of the knife in a public forum. Suffice it to say there are many targets, and Silat offers a number of ways to get to them.

Okay tellner if you are not comfortable on going into detail about the offensive use then how about the defensive use and how your system of silat moves to the right spot and method that you use.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

I break blade targeting into the following.

Blood targets, Skeletal targets, connective targets, and nerve targets.

I do include wind targets in empty hand targeting but it not as easily defined in blade stuff.

Blood targets make the pipes leak.
Skeletal targets add handles where there were none.
Connective targets make things fall apart under pressure.
Nerve targets blow fuses making the lights go out.

Personally I don't think there is too much about blade targeting that can't be learned from Grey's Anatomy or other medical text.

As to how you get there?
I'm still working that out.

Mostly I just use the same stuff I do with empty hands.
Saves time and speeds things up for me.
I do study what other folks do and see one thing that separates what I consider good blade from not so good blade.
And that is mindset.

 

[tellner]

There are all the usual targets: the blood vessels from the facial carotid (slashing) to the Great Vessels (stabbing), the tendons, cuts to the fascia (sort of like filleting the arm), and so on. Pretty much the same ones that everyone uses. Without getting into too much detail, the movements of the juru juru translate just about perfectly to the knife. Both forward and reverse grips are used, but we don't tend to switch things around much unless using the "mobile" lanyard. Insertion depends entirely on grip, target and relation to the opponents. There's a lot of emphasis on getting strong control of the attacker as quickly as possible - none of this tapping around at the middle distance. In close or far away. Otherwise you're dead.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

The training I've had emphasized abdominal thrusts, and keeping the blade moving once you got it in there.

Jeff

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That is definately effective Jeff and with the upward angle it will be lethal with a decent sized knife.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I knew this thread is edgy/touchy so if you have something you want to say but are not comfortable then just pm me the info.

Still I think we can have some good conversation about what we are comfortable with.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I break blade targeting into the following.

Blood targets, Skeletal targets, connective targets, and nerve targets.

I do include wind targets in empty hand targeting but it not as easily defined in blade stuff.

Blood targets make the pipes leak.
Skeletal targets add handles where there were none.
Connective targets make things fall apart under pressure.
Nerve targets blow fuses making the lights go out.

Personally I don't think there is too much about blade targeting that can't be learned from Grey's Anatomy or other medical text.

As to how you get there?
I'm still working that out.

Mostly I just use the same stuff I do with empty hands.
Saves time and speeds things up for me.
I do study what other folks do and see one thing that separates what I consider good blade from not so good blade.
And that is mindset.

Great post Bill!

Mindset is really, really, really important as we all know that this is nasty kind of work. I would ditto Grey's Anatomy as a great medical book to have and do research with. (no not the show) My copy is sitting right behind me at the moment.

 

[KenpoTex]

Unlike all you cool guys, I've never had the opportunity to study any FMA's or knife systems other than what I've picked up from a seminar or two and some DVD's (there is NO ONE in my area that teaches any of this type of stuff ).
As a result, my "knife-style" could best be described as "dirty prison-style shanking mixed with a little Applegate/Fairbairn, mixed with a little SouthNarc"

I primarily train to hit the throat/neck region, the abdomen basically from the bottom of the rib-cage to the belt-line, the kidneys, and the groin. To get to those targets, I'll cut, stab, or rip anything in the way.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Okay when practicing your particular style of knife work what are some of the main insertion points you are looking at when thrusting. An example might be that your style focuses on: Insertions in the neck, under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle to the heart, Armpit, Inner Thigh femoral artery insertion, etc. In IRT we cover the above and more but I was interested on other systems take on where they are inserting/thrusting.

Also if you want to how do you get there?

In IRT we utilize multiple ways of getting there from a straight direct line, indirect line, etc. Typically we are utilizing some form of traping hands with angles and movement to get to the desired place.

Of course none of the above would be used unless the encounter justified lethal force. (at least in IRT)

We have all these in the knife work that I have learned and teach. There one that is something of a favourite of mine not on the above list. It is an insertion into the body cavity via a downward thrust just behind the collar bone and inside the shoulder joint. To attain the right position for this strike requires a number of preliminary or positioning slashes along the chosen arm, usually at the wrist, up the forearm and through the elbow joint (these lat two are usually a single stroke).

 

[OUMoose]

As far as thrusts, I think the armpit, groin, abdomen from the front, and lungs from the rear/side would be ideal.

As far as getting there, well.... you gotta figure that part out.

I couldn't really see a "defensive" application of a thrust, since it's a much more aggressive action than a slash. Also, it seems to me that the prime targets are in the core, which in an evasive situation wouldn't generally be as open as slashes/cuts to the appendages.

Just my opinion, though.

 

[Trent]

Any knife instruction will have to be done personally even on a theoretical level. We keep that information very close to the vest as it is far too easy to abuse, and particularly by those who express the greatest interest or need.

However, the method of moving, and defending, the knife in 4-dimensional space is inherent in the jurus and langkahs of the system with the appropriate timing, rhythym, angling, positioning and other considerations. I will say that most of our knife work is either "out of range" or "nose to nose" and includes the fleeting moments of range crossing being handled as quickly as possible for extreme close range utilization.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Trent,

Wouldn't it be possible to learn quite a bit of the Kuntao Silat theory from the heartless monkey dvds?

Obviously there is application that needs to be learned and refined with a Kuntao Silat teacher.

But it was my understanding those dvds and the others are for distance learning students.

I understand your position, as I do tellners.

But his teacher doesn't have dvds that are blade specific.

 

[hyooge_2000]

Gotta go with the silat guys on this one. In terms of insertion points as well as body mechanics of yourself and the victim, I think the djurus have plenty to offer anyone thinking of using a knife in any art especially getting up close and personal. this, of course, is not to say that silat is superior to any other art, just that it would compliment just about anyone in terms of understanding structure.

 

[mrhnau]

Insert into the soft and mushy. Avoid the hard and crunchy.

 

[kempo-vjj]

another problem in that I have is the difference between silat and phillipino knife work. The Silat seems simpler to me, and an easier base to learn from, since I'm new to it. The Phillipino is a little flashier to me. We work our jurus and then work applications from it. We also have base sets that we do that are not from the jurus.

 

[kaizasosei]

i have heard that pentjak silat means 'beautiful movements'.
?- i can appreciate the low stances and various forms from the little i know...


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