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Busted down to picking up empty shell casings on the firing range it is, then. (or ought to be).
I'm Not Dude!
- Thread starter MA-Caver
- Start date
Guardian
Black Belt
After being in Law Enforcement and trying to go back to it civilian life now. I can't believe this officer had nothing better to do with his time then get on some kids for skateboarding (were their signs, I doubt it), I have yet to see a sign anywhere that says no skateboarding especially in a wide open area like that, maybe they are, but the chances of these kids knowing that or seeing a sign in that open of space is zilch. Hell the cops probably doesn't know every ordinance in the city much less expect kids to.
Now on to his actions, no matter what was said, he assaulted the kid to take the skateboard, there was no words on that video of give me the skateboard prior to him coming up grabbing the kid and taking it. Doesn't matter either way, if he touched the kids like that, dead wrong all the way around. If it was such a deal, slap the cuffs on him and take him to Juvy pure and simple.
His actions were wrong and anyone advocating fear as being the best deterent could have a point to an extent, but fear will only go so far in this world before fear is replaced by loathing and resentment and then it continues on to more destructive things.
He might have had a bad day, family problems, who the heck knows, and maybe he should have tried talking to them, he started yelling almost immediately and though Dude would not be a term that I would be liking to, it's not the end of the world, but this cop took it that way and went to far.
Should he lose his job, no, should he think about things like this in the future, most definately.
IMHO
Now on to his actions, no matter what was said, he assaulted the kid to take the skateboard, there was no words on that video of give me the skateboard prior to him coming up grabbing the kid and taking it. Doesn't matter either way, if he touched the kids like that, dead wrong all the way around. If it was such a deal, slap the cuffs on him and take him to Juvy pure and simple.
His actions were wrong and anyone advocating fear as being the best deterent could have a point to an extent, but fear will only go so far in this world before fear is replaced by loathing and resentment and then it continues on to more destructive things.
He might have had a bad day, family problems, who the heck knows, and maybe he should have tried talking to them, he started yelling almost immediately and though Dude would not be a term that I would be liking to, it's not the end of the world, but this cop took it that way and went to far.
Should he lose his job, no, should he think about things like this in the future, most definately.
IMHO
That's a balanced and well throught through post, Guardian.
Guardian
Black Belt
I don't think so. They have a history of filming officers when they get yelled at by them, and admitted they where in the wrong.
How is that different then someone admitting they where in the wrong when caught speeding or running a stop sign? If my history with the cops was full of instances like that, I'd probably be tempted to flip a camera on when one approached me too.
But regardless, watching the video they really did nothing wrong after they where told to stop skateboarding. Certainly nothing to warrant that. I would however expect a officer to be able to remain calm and professional under far worse situations.
Had he asked or given any hint that he was going to use it as a weapon I might agree. However the kid did not refuse his request to take the skateboard, he didn't ask until he had the kid in a headlock.
The kid was disrespectful, no question there. However, I expect better, not worse, from Police Officers. But at it really only comes down to one thing, after such an encounter with a police officer, would you have more, or less respect for their authority?
Anyone that gets treated like that by police is not going to come out with respect for their authority, and by association the laws which they enforce. Especially kids with skateboards who probably have had a few such encounters.
Laws need to do two things, they need to protect your rights and safety, and they need to prevent you from taking away other peoples rights and safety. From the point of view of teenagers it may very well seem they only get the one side of it, legally they seem to have more things taken away to protect others, yet they have less rights as far as recourse goes or prevention of discrimination against them. It's really not that surprising that many fight back against this. Which of course leads to more discrimination, which means more of them rebel against "The Man"
There does need to be a balance, otherwise things keep spiraling down. Officers going off on kids like this for a simple thing like skateboarding as a method of transportation (doesn't sound like they where even hanging out on ramps or rails doing tricks, just going from one place to another) is failing to keep that level of professionalism that is necessary to balance the kids need to rebel against authority, with their respect for the societal rules that the authority figure stands for. He did not "teach them a lesson" in any good way, the only lesson they walked away with is that Cops are just bullies with badges that treat them like garbage because of who they are.
Well put, Andrew, and I concur.
OT-ish
I just wanted to say that yet again MT has proven to me why I like to come here every day and listen/chat.
Not many martial arts sites would have a thread such as this one where an emotive and potentially explosive issue is discussed so eloquently.
Well done all.
Back to your regular programming
.
I just wanted to say that yet again MT has proven to me why I like to come here every day and listen/chat.
Not many martial arts sites would have a thread such as this one where an emotive and potentially explosive issue is discussed so eloquently.
Well done all.
Back to your regular programming
.
Archangel M
Senior Master
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Thats only a good analogy if you intentionally run stop signs so you can film the cops. The kids said they film the police because they enjoy laughing at them yelling at them latter.
Where is that an admirable trait for kids to have? I think it goes hand in hand with the ["dude"] lack of respect issue.
But thats a separate issue from if this officer is in the right. After looking at that last video of him, Im beginning to think he lacks the interpersonal skills to be working these high visibility posts with the "normal public". But none of us are privy to this officers worthiness based on 2 internet videos.
I really want to be clear here - I have MUCH respect for the law and for good LEOs. I would not want to be out there every day with the amount of training you get without supplementation charged with the duties that you guys are.
And you gotta take it in the jaw a lot whenever someone with a camcorder picks up part of an incident on film. I think it takes real professionals to be able to look at these cilps, read these comments and keep their heads. Kudos to you guys who can handle these comments.
For the person who posted that they know Officer Rivieri: please know that some people feel it is imperative to monitor one's interaction like this when you are a public servant. I feel for the officer - he's had two of his worst moments aired across the nation ... only two moments in a long career. I feel a little bit bad saying that he was a "meter maid" - I honestly thought he was - he's driving a minicar in *very* casual attire (I think even the bicycle officers in Portland appear a little dressier, though honestly not much). I'm not used to seeing an officer who is not on light patrol attired thusly.
IMHO, the very best thing that can come from threads like this is honest examination and open, respectful discussion leading to the outcome of every good officer's self-examination. "Do I ever look/sound like that?" "Am I accomplishing what I want to accomplish?" "Is there a better way?"
I'm confident there are many posters here who realize there are indeed situations wherein one must be firm, even violent, and make moment-to-moment decisions in very charged situations and it takes a unique head to manage this day in and day out.
Thanks.
And you gotta take it in the jaw a lot whenever someone with a camcorder picks up part of an incident on film. I think it takes real professionals to be able to look at these cilps, read these comments and keep their heads. Kudos to you guys who can handle these comments.
For the person who posted that they know Officer Rivieri: please know that some people feel it is imperative to monitor one's interaction like this when you are a public servant. I feel for the officer - he's had two of his worst moments aired across the nation ... only two moments in a long career. I feel a little bit bad saying that he was a "meter maid" - I honestly thought he was - he's driving a minicar in *very* casual attire (I think even the bicycle officers in Portland appear a little dressier, though honestly not much). I'm not used to seeing an officer who is not on light patrol attired thusly.
IMHO, the very best thing that can come from threads like this is honest examination and open, respectful discussion leading to the outcome of every good officer's self-examination. "Do I ever look/sound like that?" "Am I accomplishing what I want to accomplish?" "Is there a better way?"
I'm confident there are many posters here who realize there are indeed situations wherein one must be firm, even violent, and make moment-to-moment decisions in very charged situations and it takes a unique head to manage this day in and day out.
Thanks.
Well, that was a great post Shesulsa! As I said in another post, I too, have alot of respect for LEOs, not only because I was brought up in a family with one, but because I work with them in a sense and the job is not easy. Everyday you put that uniform on, you have a target on.
In todays world, camcorders, cell phone cameras, and the like and everywhere. While I wouldn't always want to rely on a cell phone cameras video as full evidence, nonetheless, people need to realise that they're out there. Many patrol cars have dash-cams, so your actions will always be under the microscope.
IMO, if you have a job in which you deal with the public, you need to be respectful. If you can't live up to that, then you need to find another job. I deal with the public everyday. Granted its not face to face, but still, if I spoke to someone in the fashion this officer did, at the least, I'd probably be looking at a few days off.
I don't know...maybe we shouldn't judge the situation until we've 'walked in the other persons shoes' but still, it doesn't take alot of common sense to see that what took place in this video was out of hand.
As I said in another post, I too, have alot of respect for LEOs, not only because I was brought up in a family with one, but because I work with them in a sense and the job is not easy. Everyday you put that uniform on, you have a target on. In todays world, camcorders, cell phone cameras, and the like and everywhere. While I wouldn't always want to rely on a cell phone cameras video as full evidence, nonetheless, people need to realise that they're out there. Many patrol cars have dash-cams, so your actions will always be under the microscope.
IMO, if you have a job in which you deal with the public, you need to be respectful. If you can't live up to that, then you need to find another job. I deal with the public everyday. Granted its not face to face, but still, if I spoke to someone in the fashion this officer did, at the least, I'd probably be looking at a few days off.
I don't know...maybe we shouldn't judge the situation until we've 'walked in the other persons shoes' but still, it doesn't take alot of common sense to see that what took place in this video was out of hand.
I never said the kids where in the right, but the question becomes "Why do they enjoy laughing at these cops?" I don't think it's because past interactions have led them to respect them. Which was kind of my point
No, of course not. But I think it's pretty clear that in this particular instance this officer behaved in a very unprofessional manner. Nowadays in the age of the internet and viral videos officers have to be even more careful then in the past in order to retain their image of "protect and serve."
Think about how many officer to citizens interactions occur in a day, millions if not billions. Now imagine only a tenth of a percent are handled extremely poorly, we're still looking at probably thousands of poorly handled interactions. Now what if only 1 % of those are filmed, even less. That still leaves negative interactions on tape, every single day.
Now how many days in a row do you think most people would go, seeing only a couple of those interactions surface on youtube or other sites before their opinion of the Police force takes a nose dive?
A large part of the Police Forces ability to do its job is based on the public perception of the force. If that perception is poor, then they will have a very hard time dealing with the public. Officers that do things like this give a very negative image to the force, and if they do it enough, eventually someone will film them. Everyone has cellphones with camcorders built in now, it's not obvious when someone is filming you, so it's only a matter of time.
We don't know whether this was a one time snap, or whether he deals with teenagers like this on a regular basis, but what matters from a public perception POV is that this time, someone had a camera one him, and this time he screwed up and got famous for it.
It doesn't take many screw-ups caught on tape to damage reputation, but it does take a very large number of good reports to undo that damage. It's also not just this one event, punch "Skateboard cop" into youtube and you will find quite a few videos of cops & security cards abusing teenagers. Look at the cops from the teenagers point of view, not hard to understand where the lack of respect might come from when that is what they see of cops interacting with people like them.
cellphone camcorders and youtube have given kids a powerful tool, the power to fight back against discrimination and oppression that would otherwise go by ignored. Whether it is a cop abusing them verbally, and even physically, or a teacher telling them non-Christians are going to hell and deserve it. The price is that a very small number of bad instances thrown into public view make the entire institution look bad. Human brains are really not very good at putting bad news into perspective when all we see is the worst news in a "community of 300,000,000. Evolution hasn't quite caught up to that, for millions of years we lived in communities of hundreds, maybe thousands. Seeing as much "bad" as we do thanks to national and international media can throw perspective out of whack.
Archangel M
Senior Master
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I agree, but there will always be situations like this. If out of thousands of taped police encounters there is only a few "bad ones" that should be a good thing. However those few always get publicized and the rest are ignored. Unless we expect to entirely eliminate all bad encounters [which is impossible] what are we to expect?
Im not saying that we should ignore these types of stories but the impression of law enforcement the media creates out of these situations is out of whack with reality IMO.
And I dont believe for a minute that those kids issues with respect are the fault of the police.
Im not saying that we should ignore these types of stories but the impression of law enforcement the media creates out of these situations is out of whack with reality IMO.
And I dont believe for a minute that those kids issues with respect are the fault of the police.
No, we certainly can't expect to eliminate them, however officers do need to always keep in mind that in any situation they may be on camera. Departments need to treat these situations seriously, even when they are not publicized. Police officer should, IMO, be held to a higher standard.
For example, this unrelated incident shows a similar problem:
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Chances are, someone got charged with having that Pot, officer swiped it, makes a *** of himself, and is not charged. He should have been punished more severely then anyone else would have, because of his position, and because he stole evidence and abused the power given to him.
The skateboard video brings a similar issue up, he was put on paid suspension. Now this is perhaps the right thing to do, until a investigation is conducted people are presumed innocent until proved otherwise. But the public perception is that he is getting paid to stay home because he abused his power. A few weeks from now the investigation might be over, he may very well be fired, but by then the story will have been forgotten, just the memory of him abusing his position and getting paid vacation for it will remain.
I don't see a easy solution, but public perception is a important factor to having a effective and respected police force, this officer seriously damaged that perception, even if he is not actually guilty of any "crime" and should be accountable for that.
I mean if I were to do something that got national attention and made my employer look bad, I would expect that most likely I would be fired. Same for most people, if you do something that hurts your companies reputation there will be severe consequences.
For example, suppose these kids had fast food jobs, and videos of them, in uniform, spitting in burgers, yelling at customers, or something else that hurt the reputation of the business surfaced, they'd be fired without hesitation. Yet someone treats them like that and they see this person get paid holidays. Perception is everything, and this harms the public perception of the Police, especially from teenagers who see themselves as being in the same group as the kids in the video.
You know when I worked in the field quite a while ago. I tried very, very hard to never let my emotions run me. LEO's in general have a brutal thankless job. Anyone who has never dealt with the worst of our population will have a hard time comprehending it to the fullest extent of how difficult it can be.
Having said that what this officer did was let his emotions run him for just a small amount of time. Probably he is a good police officer with overall a very good record. (this I do not know but imagine it to be the case) However in this instance he just let his emotions go a bit and ranted and it was unprofessional. Maybe in this area this approach is successful. (though I do not think so) Several LEO's are on here telling you that they have to talk in the most effective manner to the population they are dealing with. Sometimes this type of talk can be well rough!
There is a bit of gray and white here. So I for one, even though I believe the officer was unprofessional and ineffective in this instance feel for him.
For the rest of us just understand that you could at any moment be in a situation where you need to act whether verbally or physically and in that moment try not to let your emotions run you. That way if you are on camera you will not be disapointed in yourself!
Having said that what this officer did was let his emotions run him for just a small amount of time. Probably he is a good police officer with overall a very good record. (this I do not know but imagine it to be the case) However in this instance he just let his emotions go a bit and ranted and it was unprofessional. Maybe in this area this approach is successful. (though I do not think so) Several LEO's are on here telling you that they have to talk in the most effective manner to the population they are dealing with. Sometimes this type of talk can be well rough!
There is a bit of gray and white here. So I for one, even though I believe the officer was unprofessional and ineffective in this instance feel for him.
For the rest of us just understand that you could at any moment be in a situation where you need to act whether verbally or physically and in that moment try not to let your emotions run you. That way if you are on camera you will not be disapointed in yourself!
Archangel M
Senior Master
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The public is also unaware of just how many cops ARE fired every year. Most PD's are not going to go to the press and publicize how many cops they discharge [why would they?]. But they get the "blue wall of silence" crap tossed at them nonetheless.
Officers are typically suspended with pay pending an investigation [innocent until proven guilty] because due to the nature of the job, what appears as an ugly use of force could very well have been justified. If the charges have some merit many are then suspended without pay as a punishment or as a step toward termination.
Officers are typically suspended with pay pending an investigation [innocent until proven guilty] because due to the nature of the job, what appears as an ugly use of force could very well have been justified. If the charges have some merit many are then suspended without pay as a punishment or as a step toward termination.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Oh no! There is another video of this guy! You must all watch this because in it you get to see a very good view of that car!
Oh -- sorry, I now see that user 'Sheulsa' previously posted it. Haha -- he is now becoming a celebrity! That is funny, but it is also NOT FUNNY! You all MAY think that I'm joking, but you could generate revenue now! He could go into some show on tv, where he has a bit part! The script could from time to time have something like, "Don't make me call up Officer Riviera on you!" That sort of thing. Stranger things have happened in entertainment!
I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but common people from time to time get celebrity and profit by it!
Oh -- sorry, I now see that user 'Sheulsa' previously posted it. Haha -- he is now becoming a celebrity! That is funny, but it is also NOT FUNNY! You all MAY think that I'm joking, but you could generate revenue now! He could go into some show on tv, where he has a bit part! The script could from time to time have something like, "Don't make me call up Officer Riviera on you!" That sort of thing. Stranger things have happened in entertainment!
I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but common people from time to time get celebrity and profit by it!
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BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
You know how many kids I see crossing against the light and telling the drivers that slam on the breaks for them to go f themselves......too many in my eyes.
This is the same kid that slashed a cops throat in my little town a few years ago, these are the same kids that rob the local gas station at both knife and gunpoint while a husband and wife are trying to make a living running it.
Too many times we just pass it off as kids being kids.
I don't know about a lot of you guys.....but my parents would have made sure that I was fined, or punished to the full extent of the law if I chose to break it.
Tough bananas for these kids and kudos to the cops......
My Father-in-law was a prison guard and saw the result of a lack of discipline in a prison full of 18 year old gangstas.
Lord of the flies...........
This is the same kid that slashed a cops throat in my little town a few years ago, these are the same kids that rob the local gas station at both knife and gunpoint while a husband and wife are trying to make a living running it.
Too many times we just pass it off as kids being kids.
I don't know about a lot of you guys.....but my parents would have made sure that I was fined, or punished to the full extent of the law if I chose to break it.
Tough bananas for these kids and kudos to the cops......
My Father-in-law was a prison guard and saw the result of a lack of discipline in a prison full of 18 year old gangstas.
Lord of the flies...........
LuzRD
Black Belt
ok, after rereading the posts of those who are sticking up for officer Rivieri i change my mind.
attacking that kid wasnt enough!!! i heard that these teenagers roughly fit the description of thousands and thousands of other kids their age, and some of them are criminals :xtrmshock: we should convict them now BEFORE they have a chance to prove they might be unlike us!
we should get the next MT meet and greet scheduled to be held in the same place that officer Rivieri likes mistreating people who are minding their own business *oops i mean enforcing his ego *OOPS!! i mean enforcing the law!!
this way we can let him make us just like him, bring some advil cuz i bet everyones ears will be hurting after not too long.
...wait a minute he might not be working there anymore because he was so far out of line he doesnt remember that there ever was a line. oh well, nevermind continue with M&G as scheduled i spose. darn
OR!!!! those who think that the government and its officials should be able to do what they want to whomever they want to, there happen to be places on this planet that currently will give you what you want. thats right!! you dont even need to finish that time machine youve been working on in the garage to go back 70 years and enjoy the previous Reich you can be oppressed and mistreated in a number of countries in the 21st century :highfive:!!! so if being surrounded by people that arent forced to be the same as you just doesnt cut it, MOVE!
but dont try and turn my America into the land of the helpless, and the home of the oppressed.
:soapbox:
attacking that kid wasnt enough!!! i heard that these teenagers roughly fit the description of thousands and thousands of other kids their age, and some of them are criminals :xtrmshock: we should convict them now BEFORE they have a chance to prove they might be unlike us!
we should get the next MT meet and greet scheduled to be held in the same place that officer Rivieri likes mistreating people who are minding their own business *oops i mean enforcing his ego *OOPS!! i mean enforcing the law!!
this way we can let him make us just like him, bring some advil cuz i bet everyones ears will be hurting after not too long.
...wait a minute he might not be working there anymore because he was so far out of line he doesnt remember that there ever was a line. oh well, nevermind continue with M&G as scheduled i spose. darn
OR!!!! those who think that the government and its officials should be able to do what they want to whomever they want to, there happen to be places on this planet that currently will give you what you want. thats right!! you dont even need to finish that time machine youve been working on in the garage to go back 70 years and enjoy the previous Reich you can be oppressed and mistreated in a number of countries in the 21st century :highfive:!!! so if being surrounded by people that arent forced to be the same as you just doesnt cut it, MOVE!
but dont try and turn my America into the land of the helpless, and the home of the oppressed.
:soapbox:
One thing I'm curious about is the terminology used here. In my country and in Europe we have 'police officers' in the States you have 'law enforcement officers' and I'm curious to know what differences people see between them as I think it has bearing on this thread.
We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.
A police officer should behave respectfully towards everyone because he is the representative of the law, they have to be seen to impartial and just. It doesn't mean kowtowing to yobs or being weak. It means being strong, moral and not giving into having tantrums.
Why behave respectfully to career criminals, murderers, gobby teenagers etc? Because it makes you the bigger person, above their standards and it makes you right!
We've always held police officers to be 'servants of the people' not just there to uphold the law but to help people. it's for the protection of the weak as much as persecution of the criminals. It's only in recent times that the status of poilcie officers has fallen somewhat. They were and probably still are expected to set an example in behaviour not just for teens but for everyone. yes it's very hard when being abused to hold ones temper and reply politely but it's what you do because you have to be above the behaviour that you are trying to curtail.
A police officer should behave respectfully towards everyone because he is the representative of the law, they have to be seen to impartial and just. It doesn't mean kowtowing to yobs or being weak. It means being strong, moral and not giving into having tantrums.
Why behave respectfully to career criminals, murderers, gobby teenagers etc? Because it makes you the bigger person, above their standards and it makes you right!
It's kind of interchangeable..Police Officers are refered to as Law Enforcement Officers or LEO's..It can get real confusing especially when you throw the Deputy Sheriffs into the mix..I call my buddy that works for Cuyahoga County Sheriffs Department "A Dep"...The one that works for the Highway Patrol "A Statie"..If you work in the jail you're "a C.O."...Confusing ain't it????
