Illegal Immigants from Mexico

[Tez3]

Now, I don't intend this to be a discussion of what should be done with them or how to stop them. There is a question I have to ask though after watching a programme late last night on the police in Nogales. They were chasing illegals and the people traffickers. The officers were saying that the illegal immigants were treated horrendously, often left to die in the desert, kept in rooms packed with people with no food or water or toilet facilities. waiting for their families in Mexico to pay their 'ransom'. The women were usually sexually abused, the danger to these illegals was huge, in all it sounded horrible.
My question is then, are things so bad in Mexico that people are willing to go through all that just to reach the States where surely they won't be able to earn that much as illegals?
I didn't get to watch the end of the progamme having to go out before the end because of a disturbance with drunken squaddies having a disagreement lol but it did raise some questions among us on the way there. How bad does life have to be to make you risk all that and take all your money to get to a safe country?

 

[Big Don]

There have been 40 some THOUSAND people killed in northern Mexico in recent years, by the drug cartels. That may be worth running from. Allegedly, they come here to do "Jobs American's won't" but, that is crap.

 

[Cyriacus]

My Next Reply is Better than this one. But the Reply is somewhat Limited by the set Parameters, so i shall leave this here, in Size 1 Text

This is a Topic on which I am of Split Mind.

On the One Hand, Mexicans, and Immigrants, DO take American Jobs, and Money, and everything else.
On the Other Hand, they can Justify their Transition.

As such, im not opposed to Legitimate Immigration.
I am passively opposed to Illegal Immigration.
However, Mexico really needs to get its Armed Forces together, and Police Itself.

Therefore, I say allow them in. But on strict Conditions. That way, its LEGAL, Free, Easy, but Limited.
Think of it like a; "We wont Arrest you for coming accross Illegally. But you can only work in the Following Industries, earn no more than the Following Income, and must Fully Register as a Citizen to do anything else. For the mean time though, you can Live and Work here."

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Now, I don't intend this to be a discussion of what should be done with them or how to stop them.

Please keep this limitation in mind while responding. We've had plenty of discussions that've gone round and round about illegal immigration. Tez seems to be after something specific.

 

[Cyriacus]

Please keep this limitation in mind while responding. We've had plenty of discussions that've gone round and round about illegal immigration. Tez seems to be after something specific.

But wouldnt that be the, how shall i say, Lateral, Topic?

For what its worth though, i can see how that could have been overlooked after reading everything else, perhaps.



They are Justified in wanting to Leave, because Lives are being made Miserable. Under the same Conditions, I would Consider Leaving. Unfortunately, I cant technically say more than that without violating the initial Paramater

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How bad does life have to be to make you risk all that and take all your money to get to a safe country?

Mexico is very nearly what one would call a 'failed state'. There are places that are worse to live, but few of them border a wealthy country with a high standard of living, low crime, and good medical care (comparatively speaking). It is not so much that Mexico is so bad, or that the USA is so good, but that they are next door to each other over a large porous border. This also brings illegal aliens from the rest of Latin America as well, some even from South America; but most from Mexico because it borders us.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/mexico_road_failed_state

As to why:

Remittances

Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $18 billion in 2005.[32] In 2004, they became the tenth largest source of foreign income after oil, industrial exports, manufactured goods, electronics, heavy industry, automobiles, construction, food, and banking & financial services. Larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.1 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.[33] The growth of remittances has been remarkable: they have more than doubled since 1997. Recorded remittance transactions exceeded 41 million in 2003, of which 86 percent were made by electronic transfer.[34]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico#Poverty

Look at it this way... if everyone around you is as poor as you are, there's not much reason to leave, especially if it is dangerous to do so. If you live next door to a millionaire and he leaves his doors unguarded, but has vicious attack dogs that might get you and you're hungry...you might risk the dogs to get some food/money/etc.

I'm staying out of the whole "is it right" discussion, as you requested. Just speaking to your question.

 

[Tez3]

Basically I know nothing about Mexico other than I know some people who have been on holiday there so I was wanting to know how bad the conditions were (or not) than made people risk death, abuse and bad treatment to get to the States.
We have econominc migrants illegal and legal here but they are mostly from the Commonwealth or places I know like Afghan, Iraq etc. Just wanted to know what Mexico has, hasn't and what it's really like.

 

[granfire]

Basically I know nothing about Mexico other than I know some people who have been on holiday there so I was wanting to know how bad the conditions were (or not) than made people risk death, abuse and bad treatment to get to the States.
We have econominc migrants illegal and legal here but they are mostly from the Commonwealth or places I know like Afghan, Iraq etc. Just wanted to know what Mexico has, hasn't and what it's really like.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98299-My-city-is-in-panic!!!!
Our own, Manny, posted this a few days ago.
This is really frightening!
And as far as I recall, his hometown is, though on the coast, not a border town...

 

[jks9199]

Tez, the simple answer is YES.

Consider that living 3 or 4 families to an apartment is a move up in standard of living. That earning a few hundred a week can be more than year's wages in their home country. And that the government and police there are often incredibly corrupt... meaning that the average person has no recourse.

We don't tend to see doctors and lawyers slipping the souther border. We get the farm hands and laborers who might earn a dollar a day...

 

[Blindside]

Basically I know nothing about Mexico other than I know some people who have been on holiday there so I was wanting to know how bad the conditions were (or not) than made people risk death, abuse and bad treatment to get to the States.
We have econominc migrants illegal and legal here but they are mostly from the Commonwealth or places I know like Afghan, Iraq etc. Just wanted to know what Mexico has, hasn't and what it's really like.

Twenty years ago I spent several seasons working in different parts of Latin America, I spent two months in Mexico in the state of Michoacan, mostly working in rural communities. At the time, well before the current conflict, something like 60% of the male population was in the US finding work, I don't remember a stat for the female population. It wasn't exactly a new phenomenon, when talking with many of the older community leaders, they would talk about where they had worked in the US, and it was in virtually every state and the jobs ranged from restaurants in any state to fish processing to agriculture to construction. The reason was simply economic, the income disparity even for minimum wage or below minimum wage jobs was significantly higher than the potential in Mexico. If the situation was reversed, and it was my family that I was trying to feed, I would probably make a similar decision. Add in the current conflict, well, I would have even more incentive to move.

 

[elder999]

Pretty much, yeah. I travel to Mexico pretty frequently-where there is no money, as in rich Mexicans or Americans-it's pretty much a ********, economically. In some tribal, rural areas there's a decent quality of subsistence lifestyle, but that's becoming rarer and rarer. Last year I built a flagstone patio, and hired some day laborers from Santa Fe-I say from Santa Fe 'cause that's where I drove to to hire them. Paid them $15/hr.,they did good work and were really happy with what I paid them-said most contractors that hire them pay a lot less.

 

[Tez3]

Cheers for that! I appreciate the time taken to answer. I know you can look online for things but often it's politically biased or a holiday ad type thing. I hope it's not rude to say I prefer it from the horses mouth!

 

[jks9199]

Pretty much, yeah. I travel to Mexico pretty frequently-where there is no money, as in rich Mexicans or Americans-it's pretty much a ********, economically. In some tribal, rural areas there's a decent quality of subsistence lifestyle, but that's becoming rarer and rarer. Last year I built a flagstone patio, and hired some day laborers from Santa Fe-I say from Santa Fe 'cause that's where I drove to to hire them. Paid them $15/hr.,they did good work and were really happy with what I paid them-said most contractors that hire them pay a lot less.

Yeah... Too often, people hire these guys for $50 a day or whatever, then stiff 'em at the end of the day. Even worse, they'll give the guy a bad check. He goes, cashes the check at whatever check cashing place, and when the check bounces, the check cashing place goes after him for the money, as well as service/collection fees. So, not only is the laborer out his money, less the initial check cashing fee -- but he owes the store $25 or $50 on top of it. And he ends up paying it, because he still has to deal with the place.

 

[JohnEdward]

Now, I don't intend this to be a discussion of what should be done with them or how to stop them. There is a question I have to ask though after watching a programme late last night on the police in Nogales. They were chasing illegals and the people traffickers. The officers were saying that the illegal immigants were treated horrendously, often left to die in the desert, kept in rooms packed with people with no food or water or toilet facilities. waiting for their families in Mexico to pay their 'ransom'. The women were usually sexually abused, the danger to these illegals was huge, in all it sounded horrible.
My question is then, are things so bad in Mexico that people are willing to go through all that just to reach the States where surely they won't be able to earn that much as illegals?
I didn't get to watch the end of the progamme having to go out before the end because of a disturbance with drunken squaddies having a disagreement lol but it did raise some questions among us on the way there. How bad does life have to be to make you risk all that and take all your money to get to a safe country?

It is true, Mexican's, Central American's and South Americans take horrible risks and face horrible atrocities. They risk abuses equally that to any period of history, slavery, inhumane conditions, torture, and more at the hands of their own countrymen-mainly. The smugglers, human and sex traffickers, kidnappers,slavers, drug cartels, thieves, etc. who mostly are from spanish speaking countries are the ones responsible for such misery and mistreatment. But, also the fault is with their governments who has greatly mistreated its people. It has adopted the philosophy of corruption, greed, bigotry, prejudice, and immorality for as long as history was recorded. It is the poor lot, and not the rich that suffer as such. The injustices of those poor and uneducated who are making the long perilous trek North suffer such atrocities at the hands of their own. Once in the US being arrested by US immigration are treated humane and just, in comparison. Amongst the poor there are too the criminal who run from justice, or see greater criminal opportunity in the US preying on their own people.

If you study the History of countries like Mexico on down, if you know the culture, the political government system, it is clear why these proud, poor and uneducated, down trodden, who people risk life and limb, as previously described, pay unrealistic amounts of money they don't have to get the US. Countries like Mexico must threat all their people fair and equally, there must not be divisions among their people. They must change their own culture, of corruption, greed and prejudice, valuing an educated and fair society. But, this has never been the history of those countries, and as such has given arise to many revolts and wars to try and balance the equation, and it is the cause of the rise in power of the drug cartels, and the blossoming of a new movement that welcomes Al-Qaeda. For centuries they have heard stories of the North (US) from other countrymen as being the promise land where money and opportunity are endless, laced with romanticism and absent of facts. That is why they leave their country. People don't risk their lives to flee paradise.

 

[JohnEdward]

And the Government holds on to it's people mostly uneducated with propaganda that says harvest the fruits of the North and return to live like kings. Which is a poly to keep the Governments richer, as well as the rich. I am not going to go into detail because it is long and detailed, and would create an OT discussion. Just know the Governments are greed and corrupt and with such bad economies they got to get their money somewhere.

 

[David43515]

The basic idea of people risking it all to get somewhere with more opportunity isn`t rare. Especially if, like bill pointed out, it`s just on the other side of an imaginary line on the map. Think of Cuban and Haitian boat people heading to Florida. East Germans sneaking into the west. Or Vietnamese boat people trying to go anywhere.

 

[WC_lun]

In some parts of Mexico and South America, living conditions are very bad. It would be niave to think that people would not immigrate to the US for a better life. We are after the richest nation on earth, fairly stable, and with a pretty good standard of living. I know that if I had to face constant drug cartell violence or crippling poverty, I would consider migrating if it meant a better, more stable life, for me and my family.