Idiosyncrasy

[Oily Dragon]

Also, a LOT of MMA schools are JKD schools, SBG being the obvious one but there are many others and those dudes compete hard.

It really depends on the teacher and the student.

 

[Steve]

Couple of quick thoughts.

First, I think boxers, wrestlers, etc are definitely martial artists.

Second, the gap in skill and the opportunity by artists to innovate within a style is predictable. In every style where practitioners are skilled enough to innovate, as the boxers do in Tony’s post, there is a clear path to application. Where styles stagnate, they do so because the training lack’s application and the training itself becomes the point.

Third (or maybe point 2b), you can’t get to expertise without application, and without expertise, you won’t get to the point where you are skilled enough to innovate. It’s just not going to happen.

Lastly, sport is a clear path to application, and therefore to expertise. For most people, it’s the only path to application.

 

[_Simon_]

Some schools of martial arts are so idiosyncratic to the person who founded them that they alone are able to perform them as intended. Certainly, their senior students might get close to the founder’s vision but the truebessense of what makes them a new school is sometimes impossible to be taught/transmitted and will be elusive to others. I‘m not referring to peculiarities in physique like limb-length ratios, tendon insertion differences etc (🤔 well, perhaps neural cytoarchitecture) but something beyond the physical that makes those founders, and their arts, unique.

I’ve yet to see anyone approach Bruce Lee‘s performance of Jet Kune Do. Hironori Ohtsuka’s performance of Wado Ryu is markedly different to his senior students. Ip Man’s Wing Chun looks unique to him.

Are we kidding ourselves that we can even approach performing the uniqueness of some arts and if so, why study that system?

Great posts thus far. Okay, I've had my 3 weeks to think about it, or what feels like it anyways!

Yeah I don't think we were ever meant to be carbon copies of the founder, and I also don't feel any styles/systems/arts are meant to be cookie-cutter routines that get everyone to the exact same point.

For GREAT terror, trepidation and fear of this leading to yet another it's the style vs. the individual debate 🤣, I feel every art aims to transmit the underlying principles for each individual to express it within their own uniqueness. I guess the difference between learning a quantity of techniques vs. expressing the principles.

It's funny though, I can look at different practitioners do kata, and know almost IMMEDIATELY what their style is, Kyokushin/Seido juku is easy to spot, Shotokan or Goju too, others like Shito ryu or Shukokai maybe harder, but even though each individual is doing it differently, the essence of the art is there.

Sparring can be the same in recognising it too but can be more challenging at times..

At what point can we say the practitioner has effectively "mastered" the art is another thing altogether... but this may well come down to the whole results oriented approach vs. process oriented.

So what am I really saying in this jumble... not really sure... end result matters for sure, but internalising the essence of the art seems more nuanced, and not dependent on exact performance necessarily.... shrugs!

 

[Gyakuto]

Pardon me while I go get my skull enlarged so I have enough space to give this comment a worthy eye-roll.

Ha ha! After you’ve had the done, look at a dictionary in order to fill that empty space! I’m pulling your leg 🙏🏽

 

[Gyakuto]

It’s a matter of semantics, which doesn’t mean it isn’t important.

(The following pertains to the Japanese martial arts only)

The Japanese word for martial art is ‘bujutsu’. The prefix ‘bu’ pertains to ‘martial’ or war. Wars are fought by people trained specifically to fight in wars. Combat sports have never be used in war/conflicts (or at least not significantly). Therefore, in the Japanese sense of the word martial, wrestling, sumo boxing, karate, aikido, shorinji kempo, etc are not martial.

Jutsu is often translated to ’art’ but in fact the word ‘gei’ is a much more accurate translation. Jutsu is better translated as craft/skill/discipline. The ‘martial arts’ were predominantly devised by civilians not warriors in the sense of ‘people who go into battle’ in Japan they would likely be called ‘Samurai’. Jutsu is devoid of the spiritual connotations of ‘Do’. Thus, what we think of as martial arts are better called ‘mingei’ or ‘people’s’ or ‘folk skills’ like pottery, kimono dying, carpentry etc. highly skilled and highly effective.

We, in the West (and in Japan too) use ‘martial art’ as a shorthand….we all know what we mean when we say it. The fact they are not actually martial arts in the strict definition of the phrase, does not suggest they are ineffectual or useless in any way. They absolutely can be. It just means they are not ‘a skill used (and honed) in the heat of war by specialised military personal (samurai in the case of Japanese)’. If you find your hackles rising at all this, you probably need to look inwardly to reason why.

I can’t wait to explain all this to Mike Tyson/Tyson Fury when I finally get to meet them 🥊 🥰

 

[Oily Dragon]

So what you're saying is, if your training doesn't take into account your immediate or impending DEATH, it's probably not martial in the literal sense.

Ok, I can dig it.

In that case there are only three rules of martial arts, as seen in this classic scene.

 

[Gyakuto]

So what you're saying is, if your training doesn't take into account your immediate or impending DEATH, it's probably not martial in the literal sense.

That’s exactly what it says in my dictionary! Do you work for the OED?

 

[Gyakuto]

So what you're saying is, if your training doesn't take into account your immediate or impending DEATH, it's probably not martial in the literal sense.

Thinking about, getting in the ring with Tyson would, by that definition, make it a martial art! 😳

 

[Oily Dragon]

That’s exactly what it says in my dictionary! Do you work for the OED?

But but I'd probably rock that job. I hate my current one.

 

[Gyakuto]

But but I'd probably rock that job. I hate my current one.

Ironically, I can’t understand a word in the OED! The definitions are so complex!