I no longer care about Jeet Kune Do

jeff81363

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The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based. MMA and the UFC are about as real
as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
developments leading to the first UFC in 1993
 

jobo

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The Wong Jack Man fight in Oakland is shrouded in mystery, but clearly Bruce Lee was dissatisfied enough with the result that he started to move away from modified wing chun and more toward a converted southpaw
boxing style. Bruce watched films of Ali in a mirror to develop the right lead. Bruce also studied Robinson, Pep,
Louis, and Dempsey. Bruce studied books by Dempsey and others, including the United States Navy
boxing manual. What Bruce Lee did not do was swallow his pride and glove up in some Oakland boxing gym, putting his right lead boxing AGAINST BOXERS. I will grant that Lee could beat any of his own students and hold his own with the likes of Norris, Lewis, and stone. However, the fact remains that Bruce refused to put
headgear on and box boxers. Since JKD is right lead boxing with eye jabs, side kicks, and a few other techniques thrown in, it seems to me that it should be more reality based. MMA and the UFC are about as real
as one can get without athletes being killed or maimed. For decades I worshipped Bruce Lee, and Jeet Kune Do
was the martial arts. Now, I view wing chun as a mediocre Chinese style and JKD as part of a long chain of
developments leading to the first UFC in 1993
what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?

, i mean dont get me wrong i thought he was pretty ace when i was 14, but then i sort of grew up and realised he was just a movie actor like john Wayne and mr Eastwood

it seems an odd thing for a grown man to spend decades of his life worshipping,
 

Kung Fu Wang

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toward a converted southpaw
boxing style.
When your opponent move toward your side door (blind side), if you have strong side

- back, your leading arm may jam your own back arm, you may not have chance to punch out your back hand.
- front, you can still use your strong leading hook punch to stop your opponent from moving toward your side door.

Also with strong side forward, it's much easier to integrate your throwing art with your striking art.
 

KOKarate

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I’m no expert in all this but from what I remember hearing and I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong but JKD was not really meant to be a commercial system...it was Bruce Lee’s own personal way of fighting it wasn’t meant to be set in stone. It actually has a lot of similarities with American kenpo in that regard (which makes sense because Bruce lee and Ed Parker lived together when Bruce was broke so obviously they shared ideas) and both arts have suffered similar fates of their students refusing to adapt the system since the founders death.

as for Bruce lee. Yeah I agree his ego was huge by all accounts and yeah he never properly entered an American boxing gym I believe some of his students were former boxers. Whether or not he sparred with them in pure boxing we’ll never know, there’s loads of exaggerated stories out there to build up the myth of Bruce lee to make the gullible think he was this untouchable god. At the end of the day they system is only as good as the practitioner.
 

Bruce7

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No one liked Bruce Lee's ego, but when Bruce Lee found someone he could learn from, he humble himself and put in the work to perfect a new skill.
I was not there, but I was told from someone I trust. Bruce Lee ask Jack Hwang how to do a certain kick.
Jack Hwang did not put up egos, so Bruce Lee must have shown respect. I was told after 3 times it had it about right, but continue the rest of the day perfecting it.

What you call a jab is not a simple jab, their is much more to it.
Jack Hwang called it a snap punch. I spent hours and hours getting it right.
I don't know if Bruce Lee taught it to Jack Hwang or Jack Hwang taught it to Bruce Lee. I just know it is the same punch.
Bruce Lee was dedicated to being the best martial artist.
Bruce Lee realized it is not the style, It is finding the best teachers and using what they could teach him.
 

gpseymour

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Also with strong side forward, it's much easier to integrate your throwing art with your striking art.
I’m curious about this comment, John. I think Intend to enter weak hand first more often with grappling, though that’s an impression rather than solid data. Why do you say strong-side-forward is better for grappling?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Why do you say strong-side-forward is better for grappling?
Most of the time, the

- leading arm is your major arm. Your 1st line defense. You use it to control your opponent's body such as head, neck, shoulder, waist. More complicate function. More used for push.

- back arm is your minor arm. Your 2nd line defense. You use it to control your opponent's arm. Much simpler function. More used for pull.
 
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Bruce7

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I’m no expert in all this but from what I remember hearing and I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong but JKD was not really meant to be a commercial system...it was Bruce Lee’s own personal way of fighting it wasn’t meant to be set in stone. It actually has a lot of similarities with American kenpo in that regard (which makes sense because Bruce lee and Ed Parker lived together when Bruce was broke so obviously they shared ideas) and both arts have suffered similar fates of their students refusing to adapt the system since the founders death.

as for Bruce lee. Yeah I agree his ego was huge by all accounts and yeah he never properly entered an American boxing gym I believe some of his students were former boxers. Whether or not he sparred with them in pure boxing we’ll never know, there’s loads of exaggerated stories out there to build up the myth of Bruce lee to make the gullible think he was this untouchable god. At the end of the day they system is only as good as the practitioner.

IMO that was a very good post.
Another point I would like to add some great practitioners are excellent teachers and some or not.
I love superfoot Bill Wallace video's. IMO he is a great teacher, but other great practitioners were not great teachers.
 

lklawson

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what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?

, i mean dont get me wrong i thought he was pretty ace when i was 14, but then i sort of grew up and realised he was just a movie actor like john Wayne and mr Eastwood

it seems an odd thing for a grown man to spend decades of his life worshipping,
Don't you dare talk bad about Marion or Clint!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Rusty B

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Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0. Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.

ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it. Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.
 
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Bruce7

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Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0. Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.

ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it. Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.

While I believe Bruce Lee is an excellent Martial Artist and probably a very good fighter.
I have to agree you brought up a very good point. Why did Bruce Lee not enter Tournaments in the 1960's or 1970's?
The big tournaments were open. They did not care if you were Karate, TKD, Kempo, Kung Fu or what ever so long as you were good.
 

Rusty B

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While I believe Bruce Lee is an excellent Martial Artist and probably a very good fighter.
I have to agree you brought up a very good point. Why did Bruce Lee not enter Tournaments in the 1960's or 1970's?
The big tournaments were open. They did not care if you were Karate, TKD, Kempo, Kung Fu or what ever so long as you were good.

Ramsey Dewey once said in a podcast that he believes he could have beaten Bruce Lee.

To the Bruce Lee fanboys and, hell, probably to even the average person... that sounds like blasphemy.

Of course, reality has to set in: we've all seen Ramsey Dewey win fights. We can't say that about Bruce Lee.

As to why he never entered the tournaments or any combat sport... I've sure he explained it in a way that's designed to sound like Far East ancient wisdom-babble. And unless you've got more charisma than a cult leader, it would've been unwise to publicly deconstruct and challenge it... because you'd end up looking bad in front of the world, even if you were right.

BTW, I remember reading somewhere that he got a CCP everywhere he could possibly get one; because he knew people would try to challenge his reputation as "the man no one can beat."

Any claim that Bruce Lee could "beat anyone" can be destroyed in three words: show me proof.
 
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Steve

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Bruce Lee's professional fight record is 0-0. Find ANY male professional fighter in MMA or any other 4 or 8-point striking sport with at least one win, and I'll gladly put my money on him.

ALL of JKD's perceived credibility comes from the fact that Bruce Lee invented it. Imagine where it would be right now, if it had been anyone else.
Are you suggesting that competitive sport martial artists are superior? :D
 

Rusty B

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Are you suggesting that competitive sport martial artists are superior? :D

Only if by "superior," you mean "will beat the breaks off any non-competitive sport martial artist."
 

punisher73

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As to the stories of BL's infamous "rooftop" fights when he was younger in Hong Kong. There is some old video of one. Looks like your average schoolyard fight in anywhere, USA.

As to BL, I think he was very gifted as an athlete with superb reflexes and his physical attributes carried him far. Men like Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell all said he was very gifted physically and could pick up any technique after just seeing it, but had a very shallow depth of knowledge in regards to martial arts.

BUT, he died when he was only 32 and didn't have time to grow or evolve, which he most likely would have done. We don't know if his martial arts would have taken more of a backseat with the breakthrough he would have achieved with Enter the Dragon. We also don't know how he would have evolved his art as he got older and lost some of his physical attributes and how he would have compensated.

As to the crosstraining and Bruce Lee being the "Grandfather of MMA", I disagree. Bruce Lee spent a lot of time in California with Kajukenbo guys and others who had already taken different arts and mixed them together. Even his protégé, Dan Inosanto, had already trained in several different arts before coming to Bruce Lee. He was just the most famous mouthpiece, but again nothing original.
 

Bruce7

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As to the stories of BL's infamous "rooftop" fights when he was younger in Hong Kong. There is some old video of one. Looks like your average schoolyard fight in anywhere, USA.

As to BL, I think he was very gifted as an athlete with superb reflexes and his physical attributes carried him far. Men like Ed Parker, Wally Jay and Gene LeBell all said he was very gifted physically and could pick up any technique after just seeing it, but had a very shallow depth of knowledge in regards to martial arts.

BUT, he died when he was only 32 and didn't have time to grow or evolve, which he most likely would have done. We don't know if his martial arts would have taken more of a backseat with the breakthrough he would have achieved with Enter the Dragon. We also don't know how he would have evolved his art as he got older and lost some of his physical attributes and how he would have compensated.

As to the crosstraining and Bruce Lee being the "Grandfather of MMA", I disagree. Bruce Lee spent a lot of time in California with Kajukenbo guys and others who had already taken different arts and mixed them together. Even his protégé, Dan Inosanto, had already trained in several different arts before coming to Bruce Lee. He was just the most famous mouthpiece, but again nothing original.

I agree with your post.
I was not there, I was told by black belts I respect that Bruce Lee's ability to quickly learn advance techniques was amazing.
IMO He was not known as a good teacher. Maybe with age he would have develop that skill.
 

stanly stud

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what made you think bruce was worthy of worship ?
people worship utter bellend Gangsters in the UK too. I despair when i see it online all the Kray worshippers, Paul Sykes...etc. although at least Paul Sykes was a real boxer just drunk too much & could not control his violence outside the ring. Better Bruce Lee than any of those dregs of society. I get your point though but regardless Bruce lee was ahead of his time.
 

jobo

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people worship utter bellend Gangsters in the UK too. I despair when i see it online all the Kray worshippers, Paul Sykes...etc. although at least Paul Sykes was a real boxer just drunk too much & could not control his violence outside the ring. Better Bruce Lee than any of those dregs of society. I get your point though but regardless Bruce lee was ahead of his time.
in what way was he ahead of his time,?

he was a one man PR machine, but that largely it
 

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