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Nightingale

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I never said that kenpo is ultimate or that people that do kenpo never get taken down. I'm saying that kenpo teaches ways that make you much more difficult to take down. more difficult does not mean impossible.

Kenpo has good points and not so good points, just like any other art. I flat out said in my post that there is no such thing as a perfect art and that everyone needs to find the art that suits them best, so I am obviously not trying to pass kenpo off as ultimate. Please read other's posts more carefully before jumping to erroneous conclusions.

respectfully,
Nightingale
 

Damian Mavis

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I think you guys are kidding yourselves.... and I mean that in the least insulting way if that is possible. The stereotypical attitude of ALL martial artists is that their art is all you really need if you just wait long enough to master it. For crying out loud I hear the same thing from thousands of Tae Kwon Do artists and we all agree that TKD is not a complete street defense art right?! Never the less I hear colleagues, students and instructors from all over the world spout the same stuff you guys are saying and it makes me cringe.

Who do you guys train with? Nice amiable partners that don't resist too hard to let you accomplish your techniques? I'm not trying to sound like an *** but I just dont see how you can think that any art is good enough for any street confrontation if you can only master it. I'm 165 pounds... I train with 250 pound muscle bound, unforgiving, nonrelinquishing and unstoppable freaks. No amount of "good stances" or fast hand work is going to save me omg. My only chances are to maybe gouge his eye, get a really solid shot to his groin or bite him really bad because when he comes charging in my strikes are completely innefective, my strength is absolutely no match for his and if he can run faster than me then I am going down and he is going to have his way with me.

I always train for the worst possible scenario and it is a daily wake up call, I will never feel 100% capable of handling myself in a street confrontation no mattter what level of expertise in any given art and I have easily won a few fights on the street but all that tells me is I got lucky that day. I don't know why I even posted this, I probably just made you mad and I'm sorry.

Damian Mavis
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KennethKu

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Mr Mavis

That is the most honest post I have ever read. My respect, Sir.

I feel the same way about MA, but I thought that was only because I suck .


Ken
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I think you guys are kidding yourselves.... and I mean that in the least insulting way if that is possible. The stereotypical attitude of ALL martial artists is that their art is all you really need if you just wait long enough to master it. For crying out loud I hear the same thing from thousands of Tae Kwon Do artists and we all agree that TKD is not a complete street defense art right?! Never the less I hear colleagues, students and instructors from all over the world spout the same stuff you guys are saying and it makes me cringe.

You are deffinatly entitled to your opinion. I don't think I have an attitude that relates to ANY stereotype. I'm not saying you have to "wait long enough to master it", I'm not saying anything about time, what I'm talking about is technique and understanding. I do not study TKD, I never have and so your statements do not pertain to me. I've had my share of street fights, I've had my share of sparring matches, and I've had my share of emergency defense against really crazy folks, none of which I felt I needed anything more to help me against them. (and afterwards, neither did the attackers!)

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

Who do you guys train with? Nice amiable partners that don't resist too hard to let you accomplish your techniques? I'm not trying to sound like an *** but I just don't see how you can think that any art is good enough for any street confrontation if you can only master it. I'm 165 pounds... I train with 250 pound muscle bound, unforgiving, nonrelinquishing and unstoppable freaks. No amount of "good stances" or fast hand work is going to save me omg. My only chances are to maybe gouge his eye, get a really solid shot to his groin or bite him really bad because when he comes charging in my strikes are completely innefective, my strength is absolutely no match for his and if he can run faster than me then I am going down and he is going to have his way with me.


How is it you know so much about who I train with? I train iron arm, and iron shin with guys twice my size and muscle strength, and I'm 6' 2" 205lbs. I began MA when I was 7 years old, that's almost 18 years of training, not nearly as much as some, but I have never in all those years trained with a MA who don't resist or allow me to accomplish my technique. Its always been about furthering my skill. I agree with you that a 250 pound guy charges you, your stances and strikes are most likely not going to matter a bit. But what if you weren't there when he got to you? What if you were suddenly beside him with a nice trip? The system I study, I fell is all I need, I don't know about any other systems. I can tell you that yes, there are some that are not complete, but if you are studying a complete system, why try and clutter your mind with "Extra" stuff, that you are most likely going to cover in your system anyway, if you really understood the concepts.

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I always train for the worst possible scenario and it is a daily wake up call, I will never feel 100% capable of handling myself in a street confrontation no mattter what level of expertise in any given art and I have easily won a few fights on the street but all that tells me is I got lucky that day. I don't know why I even posted this, I probably just made you mad and I'm sorry.

Damian Mavis
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I'm all about training for the worst scenario, and I applaud your training efforts. However, because you train hard, and in several system and are a (I am presuming here, because I don't know you) good fighter, doesn't mean what I or anyone else does is inferior to you or your training. You get mad at people who say, "My art is better than your art", and yet you are essentially doing the same thing because you train hard. Have you ever trained against a mantis practitioner? Have you ever trained against me? No, so please don't assume you know my training regiment, or my skill.

7sm
 
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bscastro

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I don't think anyone can say they are able to 100% defend themselves in any situation. I think that different types of training can improve your chances of surviving an encounter.

No matter what style you train in, in order to improve these chances, you have to have mainly one thing...progressive resistance.

Like Damian said, if your partner is letting you pull off your moves easily, you will not pull them off against someone who doesn't want you too. Of course, there are different levels to this, e.g. if you are a total beginner as opposed to someone who's done it for a while, but eventually, you have to practice with progressively higher levels of resistance.

Cheers,
Bryan
 

Damian Mavis

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7starmantis, I wasn't directing all my comments to you, it was kind of a general post about alot of peoples statements. I wasn't telling you how you train I was actually asking you. I'm also not saying that I train better than anyone else..I think my message was more like be humble and never get too confident as it might interfere with your willingness to learn more. I love martial arts, all martial arts...I'm like a sponge and want to soak it all up. The more I can learn the better, I would be pretty miserable learning only one martial art. In all honesty I'm not really concerned with how men train, if they are kidding themselves (which I'm not saying you in particular are) it's not nearly as troubling to me as when a woman kids herself about her training.

Nightingales post is what sparked mine..... throughout my life I have discovered that almost ALL the women I have loved and cared for have been raped and or assaulted (from my closest family members to friends and girlfirends...some of them over 12 times). So when I see a woman post about their training and I feel that she's not taking reality as seriously as she could I get a little sad and in this case I said something.... and probably pissed her off for sure now, I'm on a roll! It was just the statement about how good kenpo stances could save you from being taken down that disheartened me Nightingale in case your wondering. When a man attacks a woman it is brutal and viscious and overpowering.... no amount of good stance work will keep you on your feet once he gets his hands on you. I'm of course thinking of a situation where a man outweighs a woman by like 80 pounds at least.

Nightingale you said that if a 250 pound man takes down a 130 pound woman then the match is over... if you meant in the sense of tournaments than I'm sorry but if you mean on the street I have to completely disagree with you. Fighting on the ground is one of the most important things for women to work on when practicing self defence. Men don't "fight" women, it's almost completely unheard of. They usually try to catch a woman unawares and want to sexually assault a woman. That usually means grabbing you and taking you down before you get a chance to react properly. To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered. Sorry for being so graphic but this is reality as I know it. Take what I say as seriously as you want Nightingale or totally disregard it as the ravings of a lunatic. I won't be insulted if you think I'm full of crap.

Anyway, 7starmantis I wasn't assuming I know how you train or telling you that you don't train as well as I do. I apologise if you felt that was what I was doing.

Damian Mavis
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Zujitsuka

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Good day everyone. I have a few questions:

Would you go to an Italian restaurant for lo mein?

How about an Mexican restaurant for a canoli?

Can you get a buffalo burger at a vegetarian restaurant?

My point is this - I am of the opinion that no one martial art has all of the answers. All arts to my knowledge have an emphasis on one particular range of combat. Of course there may be a particular martial art that you are extremely passionate about and have a great affinity for because that range of combat is your comfort zone. However, I think that it is a mistake to present one's art as a full-service martial supermarket. It can be interpreted as disrepectful to other arts and their training methods. Also, it can cause those who do not practice your particular martial art to not respect it - what comes around will go around.
 

Nightingale

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Originally posted by Damian Mavis

In all honesty I'm not really concerned with how men train, if they are kidding themselves (which I'm not saying you in particular are) it's not nearly as troubling to me as when a woman kids herself about her training.


You are not in the studio with me and you have absolutely no idea what I do as training. Please do not assume.

Nightingales post is what sparked mine..... throughout my life I have discovered that almost ALL the women I have loved and cared for have been raped and or assaulted (from my closest family members to friends and girlfirends...some of them over 12 times). So when I see a woman post about their training and I feel that she's not taking reality as seriously as she could I get a little sad and in this case I said something.... and probably pissed her off for sure now, I'm on a roll! It was just the statement about how good kenpo stances could save you from being taken down that disheartened me Nightingale in case your wondering.

A good stance can delay a takedown by a fraction of a second, and sometimes that's all you need. and yes, saying that you've pissed me off would be putting it mildly.

When a man attacks a woman it is brutal and viscious and overpowering.... no amount of good stance work will keep you on your feet once he gets his hands on you. I'm of course thinking of a situation where a man outweighs a woman by like 80 pounds at least.

Nightingale you said that if a 250 pound man takes down a 130 pound woman then the match is over... if you meant in the sense of tournaments than I'm sorry but if you mean on the street I have to completely disagree with you. Fighting on the ground is one of the most important things for women to work on when practicing self defence. Men don't "fight" women, it's almost completely unheard of. They usually try to catch a woman unawares and want to sexually assault a woman. That usually means grabbing you and taking you down before you get a chance to react properly. To me that means the majority of self defence for women should be done on the ground. And I don't mean grappling either. Ramming you fingers into a mans eyesockets until you reach brain or visciously biting his throat or face and not letting go until you've done serious damage or getting a hold of his scrotum and twisting it like a stress relief squeeze toy are the kind of techniques that make a difference when you are completely outweighed and overpowered. Sorry for being so graphic but this is reality as I know it. Take what I say as seriously as you want Nightingale or totally disregard it as the ravings of a lunatic. I won't be insulted if you think I'm full of crap.

Damian, I assure you, I take reality very seriously. Frankly, all the grappling in the world isn't going to do you a damn bit of good if your legs are pinned and you can't move your hands because he's got both your wrists and you're outmuscled, outweighed, and completely outmatched. If the odds are that uneven, there isn't a damn thing you can do except scream. Believe me. I've been there.
 

Damian Mavis

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I'm sorry your so angry, keep in mind this is a martial arts forum to discuss this kind of thing and not a personal attack of any kind. I'm also sorry you've been in such a bad situation yourself... that only reaffirms my feeling that women, ALL women need to train in some form of self defence and it saddens me when so many put their head in the sand and think that violence will never effect them. And if it never does than lucky them! Kudos to you for taking self defence so seriously.

A good stance isnt going to delay anything at all when grabbed unawares... your already going down with no time to change your stance or you've been picked up off your feet. The thing you said about your legs and hands being pinned was right on, no amount of grappling is going to save you at that point. And your right, screaming is one of the most effective self defence techniques available for womens self defence. The only other time to use the techniques I mentioned above (which didn't include grappling at all anyway so not sure why you mentioned that) is when he needs a hand free to undress his victim. If he's able to completely pin you and nullify all your limbs while still able to raise himself up to get into a position to undress and rape his victim he really knows his poop. Most of the recountings of rape stories invlolve the attacker becoming vulnerable while trying to undress his victim. Of course whether a woman takes advantage of that vulnerability is another matter....I use words like most and alot because I know that it doesnt happen every time.

Again this is a forum to discuss this kind of thing, you seem very angry and I'm not trying to deliberately make you hate me heh... just discussing.

P.S. to 7starmantis and Nightingale.... we make judgements and opinions about your training based on what you tell us here.... telling us not to assume things when you just stated something about stances will make me discuss stances with you...its not assuming is it?

Damian Mavis
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Nightingale

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Damian -

the key to self defense:

DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do.

With regards to stances and takedowns.... you'd be more than welcome to come on down to the studio I train at, and we can go over this in a practical application. There is no way we can settle this debate online.
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by Damian Mavis


P.S. to 7starmantis and Nightingale.... we make judgements and opinions about your training based on what you tell us here.... telling us not to assume things when you just stated something about stances will make me discuss stances with you...its not assuming is it?

Damian Mavis
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Actually I didn't say anything about my training, so you saying anything about it is an assumption. And we ALL know what happens when you make an assumption right? You make and *** out of U and mption.


7sm
 

Nightingale

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Originally posted by 7starmantis


Actually I didn't say anything about my training, so you saying anything about it is an assumption. And we ALL know what happens when you make an assumption right? You make and *** out of U and mption.


7sm

ROTFLMAO, 7SM!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rolleyes: :rofl: :rofl:
 

Jay Bell

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Wow...a lot's gone on since I read this thread last.

Stances - Stances do not help you with aggressive attackers or being taken to the ground, movement does. If someone comes at you and you are left unaware *that* is when it's over. Taking a stance takes time...time that people don't have when being taken by surprise.

Groundfighting - To say that it's over when a female is taken down by a male is rediculous. I've seen female grapplers that can mop up people much larger and stronger then they. It's called technique.

Not only is there a lot of assumption going on (My grandfather used to say the same thing about it :D), there is also a lot of gross generalization and stereotyping happening.

Bod:
Well, Judo is a watered down martial art, and the same could be said for Mauy Thai.

To say such a rediculous statement means you haven't met a Judo or Muay Thai teacher worth their own ***.

Nightingale:
I've done a bit of judo, and what I learned there was basically, if a 130 pound female gets taken down by a 250 pound male, the match is over, so I devote my attention to not getting taken down to begin with.

Reading this it seems that your training in Judo wasn't beneficial...and I'm sorry that such training gave you a jaded opinion of how effective Judo can be when technique is deeply researched and gained.

My short lived Judo career was training under a gradutate of the Korean Judo University. His skill, understanding of the human body and technique were flawless. There was nothing of sport about it. Females did just fine under him...and their ne waza was some of the strongest I've dealt with.
 

Damian Mavis

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I thought it was dont assume because you make an *** out of you and me... *** u me.... haha ah well......

"I train iron arm, and iron shin" 7starmantis...

"DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I'm sorry I disagree so vehemently with what your instructor is teaching you, I teach the exact opposite of this to my students. And there are tons of times you will be caught unawares. But maybe you won't, I'm not that confident in my abilities to see every attack coming, if you are thats great.

Damian Mavis
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J-kid

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Anyone here who thinks that a good stance would be able to prevent a takedown is not just fooling themselfs is also asking for alot of trouble. See how i do train in Judo/Jujutsu/Muay Thai. I know about grappling and fighting stances and can say first hand you need both to be a good fighter. I respect all your post , But your idea is flawed 7sm for thinking that your art can take anyones art have you ever battled with a gracie i would like you to say that you can take them with your kung fu. I am not trying to be rude but thats what 1000s of MAs that trained only in one martial art said to the BJJ guys when they came over from Brazil well guess what the BJJ guys handed the KUng fu guys the TKD guys the boxers the wrestlers kickboxers the karate etc. THEY ALL GOT THERE asses handed to them by there art. Its only because BJJ works on standing arts weaknesses. YOu need to cross train in order to become good at fighting to say that your art is gonna be able to handle anything the world throws at you is just Fooling your self. I Cross train because i realize this because i UFC fight and i see my weakness and inprove on it i suggest you do the same thing and pull your minds out of the Gutter. Your friend Judo-kid!!!!!
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I thought it was dont assume because you make an *** out of you and me... *** u me.... haha ah well......

"I train iron arm, and iron shin" 7starmantis...

"DONT BE CAUGHT UNAWARES. If you don't know someone's there before they attack, there isn't a whole lot of anything you can do." I'm sorry I disagree so vehemently with what your instructor is teaching you, I teach the exact opposite of this to my students. And there are tons of times you will be caught unawares. But maybe you won't, I'm not that confident in my abilities to see every attack coming, if you are thats great.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Kinda weird you just threw in a little misquote of me just in the middle of your post? What I was saying about iron arm is that I train with guys twice my size and muscle strength, meaning not against easy non-resisting opponents. About being caught unawares, its not that you know someone is hiding behind that wall, its that you are trained to the point that your body in "aware" and in a situation like that, you can react quickly enough to thwart the attack. You disagree with what my instructor is teaching me? What is that exactly? What do you disagree with so "vehemently"?

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I respect all your post , But your idea is flawed 7sm for thinking that your art can take anyones art have you ever battled with a gracie i would like you to say that you can take them with your kung fu. I am not trying to be rude but thats what 1000s of MAs that trained only in one martial art said to the BJJ guys when they came over from Brazil well guess what the BJJ guys handed the KUng fu guys the TKD guys the boxers the wrestlers kickboxers the karate etc. THEY ALL GOT THERE asses handed to them by there art.

Its deffinatly not MY idea, if you talk to any advanced student of most high systems, they all say the same thing. Its because the system is so large and complete, it touches on those areas in the system itself. I have never trained with someone in the Gracie family, no. I have sparred against grapplers, its a technique that you don't understand and can't be explained over the internet. I don't know why you want me to say I could take a Gracie, this thread is not about me personally. Firstly, we are not comparing styles here, and to say that one person of this style defeated one person from this style, means absolutely nothing. When you have had more experience in the MA you will understand that completely, anyone can beat anyone on any given night. All that I said to spark this was that I didn't feel the need to cross train in many different arts. If you read my profile and my past posts you will see that I have not only trained in one art, but I do not cross train in arts that are completely different from each other. With my kung fu I do Chin na, tai chi, wing chun, they all relate. Just because I don't feel the neccessity to train in bjj and kung fu, why does that threaten you ? I feel extremely confident in my abilities to defend myslef against any attack, why should you feel threatened by that? There is a form my system that when you have completed all 16, you have learned to defend against any attack. Why do you have to compare my system to yours?


7sm
 
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sammy3170

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I think everything that I was going to say has been said. I must say that it is suicidal to work on the assumption that you won't get taken down. Why not just make sure as many bases are covered as possible. Where I train we cover both grappling and stand up fighting with total emphasis on self (life) defence. I am not going to go on about this as my opinions are clear.

Cheers
Sammy
 

7starmantis

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Originally posted by sammy3170

I think everything that I was going to say has been said. I must say that it is suicidal to work on the assumption that you won't get taken down. Why not just make sure as many bases are covered as possible. Where I train we cover both grappling and stand up fighting with total emphasis on self (life) defence. I am not going to go on about this as my opinions are clear.

Cheers
Sammy

Thats what I am trying to make you guys understand. If your system touches on all the bases, then what is the need to cross train? I'm not saying you will never get taken down, thats like saying as a grappler you will never loose on the ground. The poitn is to win right? My point is to not get taken down. I know several techniques for ground fighting, but I have never in a real life situation had to use them. I train with them, my system uses ground techniques just like most high systems do. I don't know what the fuss is all about.


7sm
 

Bod

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Re my comment on 'watered-down' Judo
Jaybell:To say such a ridiculous statement means you haven't met a Judo or Muay Thai teacher worth their own ***.
I have met such teachers. And I have great respect for them. I was trying to say that there were great advantages to such 'incomplete' systems. I study Judo very hard under a 7th degree (Kodokan) blackbelt. I started because I didn't know how to avoid the 'bumrush' attack, and I wanted to know. O-Sensei Kano carefully watered down the vast amount of jujutsu techniques, to ones that could be trained safely and at full strength.

The most important thing about sport training - like Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Rugby - is you learn to get back up after taking big knock from resisting opponents. Still, such arts leave a big gap that 'complete' systems can fill. Also, more traditional systems often have the answers to problems you wouldn't learn to solve in the sport system and warn you of the perils of playing 'by the rules'. Sometimes they'll help you understand why the more traditional approach to a sport art makes sense.

For example, in Judo the over-the-top, dominating grip is rather fashionable. Many newer teachers teach it as a must, while older teachers think it is a despicable practice.

I thought abuot it and figured that in a streetfight this grip exposes you to a punch under the armpit, which could effectively put you out of contention.

I didn't mean to cause offense by using the phrase 'watered down', I was parrotting a phrase used earlier, in order to argue that specialised has advantages.
 
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bscastro

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Originally posted by 7starmantis



Thats what I am trying to make you guys understand. If your system touches on all the bases, then what is the need to cross train?


This is a little sidebar from the main discussion...Even if your system touches on all the bases (e.g. groundfighting, kickboxing range, trapping/clinch range, weaponry) sometimes you might want to see what other styles/systems have to offer. For example, Silat has groundfighting, but it is very different than BJJ. In any case, you don't have to cross train, but you might want to see a different perspective. You might also find it enjoyable! :)

I think it's not about needing to cross-train as wanting to cross-train for variety and fun. That's why I cross-train partly.

Cheers,
Bryan
 
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