Humility, Honour, (Insert Virtue)...

[K' Evans]

This is kinda similar to the "Code of Conduct" thread but my approach and purpose of asking is different. It's not about whether your school has a code of conduct, it's more about whether the moral teachings of MAs are for real and seriously preached.

One of the regular claims about learning MAs is that it teaches an individual respect, discipline, honour, humility and some other virtue. Some parents even use this excuse to discipline their children if they suspect them to be astray. But I'd like to ask if this aspect of the philosophy of MAs is really taught and if so, in what ways?

For myself, my school has no identifiable "Code of Conduct". Yes, there are objectives, mission statements, and all that rap but I have never really considered it as being "taught", in the sense that my teacher does not give a Civics or Moral Education class. And though I personally come to identify my reason for taking up MA as an exercise in "honest self-expression", we all know everyone is in it for different reasons.

But even if you were to take away those exceptional students that are in it to learn self-defence or to beat up someone, what do MA instructors really feel about teaching these virtues? So far, I've come to think it happens on an incidental individual case basis, like maybe some students learn about practising on their own daily, or some young students get humbled from being tossed by an older person, but this leaves it up to subjective interpretation, and not what I would call a systematic teaching of benevolent character.

I do consider this particular philosophy of the MAs crucial and in a way, important to the passing of MAs (of all styles) to future generations thus I am interested to hear from others whether they feel this particular exercise of character-building tends to get neglected over "practical" self-defence drills or kata or conditioning routines. Or whether you think it is already ingrained into the committment of performing MAs...

 

[terryl965]

I believe it is the teacher responsibility to teach, the entire code of conduct and why it is so important to your training.

 

[Shotochem]

All of those things are found within yourself.

It is not an instructors job to bestow morality on anyone. Just the proper respect, knowledge and safe training enviornment.

Spiritualiy, wisdom, morality and guidance are best left to parents, ministers, priests, rabbis, or even the local witch doctor.

A MA instructor? I really don't think so.


-Marc-

 

[Kacey]

All of those things are found within yourself.

It is not an instructors job to bestow morality on anyone. Just the proper respect, knowledge and safe training enviornment.

Is is the instructor's responsibility to teach morality? Perhaps, perhaps not... but it is the instructor's responsibility to teach moral use of the skills learned in class, and to tie that use into the students' own moral values. This is easier to do when there are moral values included in the class curriculum, but they must be explained, not just recited, or they become meaningless.

 

[Rook]

Is is the instructor's responsibility to teach morality? Perhaps, perhaps not... but it is the instructor's responsibility to teach moral use of the skills learned in class

This part we are agreed on.

Personally, I doubt very much that the average martial arts teacher is any more moral or qualified to be a teacher of morality than anyone else. While it is important to avoid instructing people who are obviously going to use their new skills to harm others, otherwise, I do not think that martial arts teachers should be involved with the morality of students.

 

[shesulsa]

This part we are agreed on.

Personally, I doubt very much that the average martial arts teacher is any more moral or qualified to be a teacher of morality than anyone else. While it is important to avoid instructing people who are obviously going to use their new skills to harm others, otherwise, I do not think that martial arts teachers should be involved with the morality of students.

Would you also agree, then, that a martial arts teacher be able to use certain techniques in assessing the moral compass of his/her charges? This, of course, being the appropriate action before dispensing dangerous material to potentially dangerous persons?

 

[theletch1]

Would you also agree, then, that a martial arts teacher be able to use certain techniques in assessing the moral compass of his/her charges? This, of course, being the appropriate action before dispensing dangerous material to potentially dangerous persons?

Yes, I would. BUT then you have to go back to the earlier post stating that some MA instructors are no more morally upright than their students. Some, (and we have many examples over in the horror stories) are much worse than most of their students. My first one was a monster and he was the most vocal about shouting the moral code he thought folks wanted to hear in a martial arts school. My instructor now incorporates anectdotes (sic) into short monologues at the beginning or ending of class that are almost subconcious reminders of the responsibility that comes with you martial skill.

So, to carry your post one step further along the path...Do you feel that an instructor should refuse to train someone on the basis that they feel that person would use their skills to hurt others and what legal ramifications do you feel this would open the instructor up to when they refuse said patron? I hope this isn't gonna cause thread drift but I feel it has a bearing on the initial post.

ps. I love the format that this thread has taken on.

 

[terryl965]

This part we are agreed on.

Personally, I doubt very much that the average martial arts teacher is any more moral or qualified to be a teacher of morality than anyone else. While it is important to avoid instructing people who are obviously going to use their new skills to harm others, otherwise, I do not think that martial arts teachers should be involved with the morality of students.

I would have to dis-agree with this statement most of the instructor I personnally know try there dammest to be a moral leader inside and outside of there school. I know I live in a f antasy world but I like being there

 

[Crazy_Fox]

I don't think that it is the role of Martial Arts Instructor/Sensi to teach the morals of the Arts to the students. From my own experience when I first began training I don't remember any occasion where it was taught in what situations you should use your knowledge. In my own personal circumstances this was not neccesary, due to upbringing and the virtues installed in you from an early age by parents and tutors alike.

This may sound vey contradictory however, but I do believe it is a Sensi's responsibility to turn away students if they feel they will use their teachings to "beat people up" for want of a better term. As the teachings are dangerous (in any style) if put in the wrong hands. The reprocussions on the Instructor could be bad, but feel it would harm an Instructors reputation more so having taught a student the knowledge for them then to put it to mis-use.

 

[K' Evans]

Appreciate the views. IMO, I don't think MA instructors need to feel obligated to incorporate moral teachings into their curriculum, given that some MAs (I think) simply don't have a moral code of conduct inscribed in their philosophy or culture. Yet, the good point is brought up that MA instructors should be wary of students who may misuse the techniques that are being taught by them. But how does one safeguard against that? There just isn't any foolproof method in ensuring that.

Personally, I would like the moral-spiritual nature of the MAs to have a more significant role than it exists today, but I think it's a very hard thing to teach. I don't mind if a MA instructor is honest in recognising that his pedagogy doesn't incorporate moral lessons about using self-defence techniques, but I would think it is hypocritical (for lack of a better word) if an authority figure in the MA "sells" the notion that training in MA can teach one to be a better person. Unless there is some systematic method in teaching morality and respect for fellow human beings, some students just may not be receiving that kind of education.

 

[Shotochem]

Personally, I would like the moral-spiritual nature of the MAs to have a more significant role than it exists today, but I think it's a very hard thing to teach. I don't mind if a MA instructor is honest in recognising that his pedagogy doesn't incorporate moral lessons about using self-defence techniques, but I would think it is hypocritical (for lack of a better word) if an authority figure in the MA "sells" the notion that training in MA can teach one to be a better person. Unless there is some systematic method in teaching morality and respect for fellow human beings, some students just may not be receiving that kind of education.

Each and every person has their own interpretation of morality, ethics and values.

Hypothetically what if a MA instructor is teaching his own brand of ethics and morality that you don't agree with but he is a great teacher? Do you leave? Do you stay and subject yourself to what you don't agree with?

In todays society with many diverse peoples IMO, it is better not to tread on anything other than MA and the culture and history of what ever particular art in a MA class. All learn, no one is offended, no bussiness is lost. Remember in todays age of litigation this may be the best way to go.

-Marc-

 

[tradrockrat]

I respectfully disagree with the opinoin that instructors should not teach "morality". Instructors should not indoctrinate, but the "social morality" of a particualr place and time is very important. Others have touched on it in this and other threads. Do we teach the legal ramifications of self defense? Do we use our own internal compass of right and wrong in making decisions? Yes we do and we owe it to our students to share these observations and processes we use so that they are exposed to them and are able to make their own choices with guidance and knowledge. To me, this is the difference between a boxing gym and a dojo. One teaches skills, the other teaches skills and a way of life.

The real issue is with the word "morality". It gets peoples panties in a twist. It's a charged word involving both politics and religion - a double whammy. If you don't like it, then consider an alternative word - ethics.

I beleive in teaching ethics to my students and build life lessons / decission making processes into every class I teach. I think it is a responsibility of the teacher to do this.

JMHO

 

[still learning]

Hello, Not many schools understand the concept for leadership,standards and goals.

Everyone (schools) should have some kind of MISSION statement (purpose), a written code of conduct for every student. (behaivor)....goals or levels each rank must learn before the next promotons, (requirments written down), time should be flexible months/years. In our system it takes about 5 years to earn your student black belt...most take longer

The Sensi's/Instructors should always be at a high level of behavior and leadership. (Mature).................Aloha

PS: If there is NONE of the above? ASK? ...not George Bush?

 

[tellner]

Everyone (schools) should have some kind of MISSION statement (purpose), a written code of conduct for every student. (behaivor)....goals or levels each rank must learn before the next promotons, (requirments written down), time should be flexible months/years. In our system it takes about 5 years to earn your student black belt...most take longer

Why? Many schools don't have ranks, belts, promotions or any of the rest of that. In my teacher's class everyone is an adult. Most are married. Many are parents. Bad people don't stick around. Is there any reason to create the paper edifice?

As for martial arts instructors teaching morality, philosophy or any of the rest, I can't say as I'm terribly enthusiastic about it. If you want spirituality there are churches, zen-dos, synagogues, mosques and temples where you can get instruction from trained professionals. Athletic coaching, which martial arts is, should be done ethically and with concern for the development of those who are too young to have an integrated set of values. Skill at coaching does not necessarily translate to any of these.

 

[Cirdan]

Training in the arts teaches you respect, humility and focus by doing, not by listening to speeches on morality. Hence the best spiritual advice that can be given is simply "Shut up and train"

 

[Shotochem]

Training in the arts teaches you respect, humility and focus by doing, not by listening to speeches on morality. Hence the best spiritual advice that can be given is simply "Shut up and train"

My sentiments exactly.

Though the "shut up and train" school of though should be in regards to less talking more training and not train without asking questions.

-Marc-

 

[jdinca]

All of those things are found within yourself.

It is not an instructors job to bestow morality on anyone. Just the proper respect, knowledge and safe training enviornment.

Spiritualiy, wisdom, morality and guidance are best left to parents, ministers, priests, rabbis, or even the local witch doctor.

A MA instructor? I really don't think so.


-Marc-

How do you align your point of view with the traditional components of martial arts being "mind, body, spirit"? Teaching someone how to kill, or maim without also teaching the moral and spiritual responsibilities that go along with that, in addition to mental self discipline is, imho, negligent. And we're not talking spiritual in a religious sense, we're talking about how you treat yourself and others. Whether or not you teach this overtly, or through personal example is up to discussion but to just teach physical movement is leaving out the most important aspects of MA.

I guess it all boils down to what you're looking to get out of your training and what you expect from your teacher.

 

[Shotochem]

How do you align your point of view with the traditional components of martial arts being "mind, body, spirit"? Teaching someone how to kill, or maim without also teaching the moral and spiritual responsibilities that go along with that, in addition to mental self discipline is, imho, negligent. And we're not talking spiritual in a religious sense, we're talking about how you treat yourself and others. Whether or not you teach this overtly, or through personal example is up to discussion but to just teach physical movement is leaving out the most important aspects of MA.

I guess it all boils down to what you're looking to get out of your training and what you expect from your teacher.

I basically look at it this way. Through my training my mind and body become one by working together to achieve a greater harmony and understanding of each other. Be it focus, discipline or just figuring out how your own body works.

I personally have never achieved my own morals and values through MA. I find it hard to believe a teacher would do a better job than ones family and or religious leader. Most people train at a school for anywhere from 4-8 hrs a week in general. It takes more than that small amount of time
to instill a life time of virtue.

Society and upbringing have taught me that unwanton violence against others is wrong and only for proctecting yourself and loved ones. My MA training and teachers have echoed that. I instill this on every person I know. My try to be a fine model of a good decent human being above all else.

To hold instructors to such a higher standard IMO, is unfair and expecting much more of what most can not give. That being said, any instructor that is teaching violence for anything other than self defense is not anyone I wish to associate with.

-Marc-

 

[jdinca]

I basically look at it this way. Through my training my mind and body become one by working together to achieve a greater harmony and understanding of each other. Be it focus, discipline or just figuring out how your own body works.

I personally have never achieved my own morals and values through MA. I find it hard to believe a teacher would do a better job than ones family and or religious leader. Most people train at a school for anywhere from 4-8 hrs a week in general. It takes more than that small amount of time
to instill a life time of virtue.

Society and upbringing have taught me that unwanton violence against others is wrong and only for proctecting yourself and loved ones. My MA training and teachers have echoed that. I instill this on every person I know. My try to be a fine model of a good decent human being above all else.

To hold instructors to such a higher standard IMO, is unfair and expecting much more of what most can not give. That being said, any instructor that is teaching violence for anything other than self defense is not anyone I wish to associate with.

-Marc-

Instructors are human too. I'm definitely not saying that they need to be on an umblemished pedestal but I do think in a traditional ma setting, they need to "walk the walk" the best they can and help their students do the same.

I agree that what we do in life and how we perceive ourselves and others has more impact is up to us but I feel that the instructor should be able to help hone those attributes in their students. This doesn't have to be through long lectures, it can be through example or with just a few words at the appropriate time.

As for your final sentence, we are in complete agreement. In fact, I would extend it to people who would seek that instructor out.