Hsing i/Zing yi - a Root of Karate

[isshinryuronin]

While researching the lineage of karate years ago I was led back to the 1600's and Wong Chong Yoh, a practitioner of Hsing I. Although I had known of this art since the 1970's I've never looked into it till today. I found a YouTube of Master Hai Yang doing some short forms and application work with his students. I was quite surprised! Not at all like Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Kua or other CMA I've seen.

I note the main elements: Close-in combat, shorter stances, explosive power and progressive defense>attack. All of these are typical of classic Okinawan karate. Again, different from the larger circular movements and deeper stances I expected to see. Master Yang was very impressive (and I'm hard to impress). Anyone familiar with Hsing I and able offer background on it?

 

[BrendanF]

I can understand you seeing similarities - Xingyiquan is definitely considered the linear neijiaquan. In terms of it's history and provenance, influence is very unlikely though. It's a northern CMA.
Derived from Dai Shi Xinyiquan, which Li Luoneng learned, it's the oldest of the 'big three' IMA.
www.chinafrominside.com has some good interviews/articles on the history.
dai xinyi and xinyiliuhequan are it's ancestor arts, also influencing shaolin xinyiba.

Despite superficial similarities, the power generation is very different from that used in Karate, and the power generation/shenfa is it's signature. dai xinyi squatting monkey can give an idea of this.

 

[mograph]

Very linear.
Santi shi stance practice is essential.
Taijiquan: Rubber ball. Baguazhang: spinning top. Xingyiquan: wrecking ball.

Watch this guy:

FYI ...

Pinyin: xingyi
Wade-Giles: hsing-i or hsing i
Yale: sying-yi or sying yi

Mandarin Chinese Romanization: Comparing Pinyin to Yale and Wade-Giles

 

[Xue Sheng]

While researching the lineage of karate years ago I was led back to the 1600's and Wong Chong Yoh, a practitioner of Hsing I. Although I had known of this art since the 1970's I've never looked into it till today. I found a YouTube of Master Hai Yang doing some short forms and application work with his students. I was quite surprised! Not at all like Tai Chi Chuan, Ba Kua or other CMA I've seen.

I note the main elements: Close-in combat, shorter stances, explosive power and progressive defense>attack. All of these are typical of classic Okinawan karate. Again, different from the larger circular movements and deeper stances I expected to see. Master Yang was very impressive (and I'm hard to impress). Anyone familiar with Hsing I and able offer background on it?

Hai Yang is from a martial arts family and knows Chen Taijiquan, Baguazhang and XIngyiquan, and he is very good. Sadly, last I knew, he was no longer teaching Xingyiquan all that much.

Xingyiquan is considered one of the big 3 internal martial arts, whatever that is supposed to mean. It is not like Taijiquan, unless you look at Sun Style. And some Hebei stylists can be seen doing the forms a little slower. But Hebei is not the origin. Xingyiquan comes from Dai family Xinyiquan.

Xingyiquan, in the beginning of training is very big on the Santo Shi stance.

Di Guoyong

I had one teacher who said if you cannot stand in Santi Shi for at least 20 minutes per side you are not even a beginner.

I have a lot of posts here on MT talking about Xingyiquan, look for Xingyi addict posts. Also my blog has a few there I think as well

I have never heard of a Karate link to Xingyiquan.

What do you want to know

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan, trained properly, has small horizontal circles. Also trained properly you have to train in circles similar to baguazhang, but not facing the center of the circle like Baguazhang, and all stepping's for all postures, also backward, and opposite hand and leg. I have seen this discussed by Di Guoyong and I have trained in in Wudang Xingyiquan

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very linear.
Santi shi stance practice is essential.
Taijiquan: Rubber ball. Baguazhang: spinning top. Xingyiquan: wrecking ball.

Watch this guy:

FYI ...

Pinyin: xingyi
Wade-Giles: hsing-i or hsing i
Yale: sying-yi or sying yi

Mandarin Chinese Romanization: Comparing Pinyin to Yale and Wade-Giles

Cantonese speakers pronounce it Ying Yi

 

[gyoja]

Great information here. Thank you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Di Guoyong On Xingyiquan - Volume 1: Five Element Foundation​

Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development​

The Xingyi Boxing Manual, Revised and Expanded Edition​

​

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'll stop now, I would go on about Xingyiquan all night... it is the my favorite of the art I have trained

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Body unification (6 Harmonies) is the key. As long as a MA system emphasizes the hand and foot coordination (All body parts start to move at the same time. All body parts stop at the same time), all MA systems will look similar.

If you can drill the following 3 punches combo non-stop for 1 miles, you will develop that body unification and your MA system will look just like XingYi, Karate, or ...

 

[marvin8]

Body unification (6 Harmonies) is the key. As long as a MA system emphasizes the hand and foot coordination (All body parts start to move at the same time. All body parts stop at the same time), all MA systems will look similar.

If you can drill the following 3 punches combo non-stop for 1 miles, you will develop that body unification and your MA system will look just like XingYi, Karate, or ...

Yet, your video shows the front foot lands first, then rear hand lands after like most MAs. Most MAs coordinate front foot and lead hand. The Hai Yang video shows front foot coordinates with both front and rear hands. Which method is key/better?

 

[mograph]

Cantonese speakers pronounce it Ying Yi

Sorry — forgot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yet, your video shows the front foot lands first, then rear hand lands after like most MAs. Most MAs coordinate front foot and lead hand. The Hai Yang video shows front foot coordinates with both front and rear hands. Which method is key/better?

Foot has stopped but hand is still moving, that's not body coordination. If you divide 1 move into 2 moves, your move will slow down.

100% coordination may be hard to achieve. I believe the goal is still 100% coordination.

Can I achieve 100% coordination? Maybe I can't. But that's my goal any way.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have never heard of a Karate link to Xingyiquan.

According to my research, the lineage going back from karate's Kyan and Funakoshi: >Matsumura>Sakugawa>Takahara>Chatan Yara>Wong Chong Yoh, late 1600's (Xing yi).

I have a lot of posts here on MT talking about Xingyiquan,

I wasn't aware of that term being the same as hsing-i until today. I'll try to find those posts. Thanks.

 

[marvin8]

Foot has stopped but hand is still moving, that's not body coordination. If you divide 1 move into 2 moves, your move will slow down.

100% coordination may be hard to achieve. I believe the goal is still 100% coordination.

Can I achieve 100% coordination? Maybe I can't. But that's my goal any way.

So, which method is key/better? Your 6 harmonies praying mantis video or Hai Yang's?

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's a northern CMA.

Any relation to North Shaolin monk fist boxing? This art may have influenced karate development.

the power generation is very different from that used in Karate

I noticed delivery of body mass thru explosive forward motion, but not much usage of hips or dropping weight in the clips I saw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, which method is key/better? Your 6 harmonies praying mantis video or Hai Yang's?

Of course Yang Hai is doing better. I believe my 6 H video tries to do 100% coordination. I don't believe he intentional tries to delay his punch.

This is why I train; I like to step on the ground hard. The stepping sound can give me a clear sound to coordinate with my hand (just like dancing with the drum beat).

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah there are interesting similarities! My instructor has trained extensively in it, and he has many times taken us through some Xingyi partner drills (redirections, creating a void and closing the gap or something along those lines) and we even have the Xingyi short stick form 1 in our curriculum which I'm currently training for my next grading. Even adopt the Xingyi vertical fist for some of our sabaki drills.

He said when he trained in it ages ago, they did floor drills ooooover and over up and down the floor, training step and punch and getting the whole body delivered in the punch. Cool cool.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Body unification (6 Harmonies) is the key. As long as a MA system emphasizes the hand and foot coordination (All body parts start to move at the same time. All body parts stop at the same time), all MA systems will look similar.

If you can drill the following 3 punches combo non-stop for 1 miles, you will develop that body unification and your MA system will look just like XingYi, Karate, or ...

True, but since the question was about Xingyiquan……

 

[Xue Sheng]

Any relation to North Shaolin monk fist boxing? This art may have influenced karate development.

I noticed delivery of body mass thru explosive forward motion, but not much usage of hips or dropping weight in the clips I saw.

No relationship to shaolin

Chinese arts get separated into northern a southern depending on where they historically began.
Xingyi, bagua, taiji, changquan are all northern styles

Wing Chun, choy li fut southern styles