How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Transk53]

It's entertainment.

Yeah, an entertaining competition

 

[Transk53]

Yes, cause the title is "How Wing Chun is suppose to look... In my book."
Read another book if you don't agree! Haha!

Agree to the thread or the argument? Haha

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground is a staple of western street fighting.

It can happen in China as well.

It will be fun to train how to take your opponent down and his head is just within your kicking range.

 

[Mephisto]

Actually MMA is a competition, it tests competitors. It tests competitive skills, tactics and fitness. It is competitive fighting which doesn't necessarily make it the benchmark by which we judge all martial arts.
If you haven't realised how many TKDists there are in MMA already then I'm not sure you actually understand MMA as much as you think you do.
Can I ask how long you have trained MMA and have you coached fighters? How many fights have you seen, have you judged MMA fights, reffed them? cornered fighters? I ask to get an idea of how involved you are in MMA, that's all.

I don't train mma, don't watch it much, and don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I'm not a fanboy. I just give credit where it's due, you don't have to be a fanboy to know what mma had done for the martial arts. I'm okay with not being the best or most well rounded fighter, I dont plan on fighting anyone so I don't really care, I don't claim to be the best. I train really hard at what I do for my own sake and I don't have to discredit mma or say "it's just a sport" just because I don't do it. As for tkd did you read my post? I just mentioned that it may be an up and coming component of mma but it's still not tried and true like Muay thai. I wouldn't be surprised if the guys pulling off tkd moves had a significant amount of Muay thai under their belt.

It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.

Of course mma is a business if it wasn't we'd still have the same ruleset/ format from ufc one. But who wants to see a guy hold someone in guard for an hour? I'm not sure how being coached to win a fight isn't good for martial arts. The problem with martial arts is anyone can teach it, you can teach without having ever been in a fight. Than you have generations of guys who've never fought telling students the best way to fight or taking moves developed eons ago by someone who did have fighting experience and trying to understand it or modify it. Mma or any fighting competition is the remedy for this, if you compete you know what will work on a strong athletic person trying to hurt you. If you don't compete you might get in a street brawl here or there and you may win. But that's an unsavory life style and you're not fighting skilled opponents. You could train to best unskilled people and fail when you run across a skilled person or you could train to beat a skilled fighter from the start.

Now you have hit the nail on the head. Honest discussion yes but not arguments of the type that are on here at the moment, and no I'm not pointing the finger at you.
Not all arts are 'fighting' arts, many describe themselves as defence arts. They don't see themselves as the ones who make the first strike but who 'respond' appropriately to end a situation so that perhaps their art isn't the most optimum art for a fighting competition. However by their lights the art is fit for purpose. Not all martial artists see themselves as fighters who actively seek to fight and I think it's this that some have difficulty with, martial arts that are not into 'fighting'.

I agree completely, not every art trains to develop fighting skill, that's fine. But it's a problem when guys who don't fight want the same respect as those that do. or when guys that don't fight deride fighters due to insecurity.

 

[Transk53]

I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.

Look, I respect the fact that you like to argue a point. Yes you are indeed correct, I have no disagreement with that, only when a thread is about to descend into chaos, I would say back off. That is my viewpoint.

 

[Hanzou]

Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.

Yes, street fighting. Exponents of Bjj tested their skills in the streets, and in competition, that's how it developed. You can see this history when you directly compare Bjj to its ancestor style of Judo.

As for getting kicked in the head, you can solve that problem by not traveling around by yourself, or utilizing Bjj techniques that don't require you to fully engage on the ground, like knee on belly or modified mount.

Look, I respect the fact that you like to argue a point. Yes you are indeed correct, I have no disagreement with that, only when a thread is about to descend into chaos, I would say back off. That is my viewpoint.

The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think anyone is saying all of a sudden TMA's aren't meant for that. It's just that a lot of TMA's see themselves as defensive rather than competitive, remember the saying 'no first strike in karate'? That's a good debating point in it's self but the fact remains a lot of people don't see their arts as being for competitive purposes. Remember your Shotokan history?

While defensive minded, we never believed we couldn't fight with Shotokan if someone was trying to cave our faces in. Imagine my surprise when I went up against a Boxer and he erased all of my shotokan skills in a matter of seconds, with better footwork, and faster/more efficient hand techniques.

 

[Tez3]

While defensive minded, we never believed we couldn't fight with Shotokan if someone was trying to cave our faces in. Imagine my surprise when I went up against a Boxer and he erased all of my shotokan skills in a matter of seconds, with better footwork, and faster/more efficient hand techniques.

No that wasn't what I meant. I said Shotokan history not what you did or do. The fact that the founder of Shotokan wanted no sparring or fighting.

 

[Transk53]

The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion

Quite. Hope you keep to that

 

[Mephisto]

No that wasn't what I meant. I said Shotokan history not what you did or do. The fact that the founder of Shotokan wanted no sparring or fighting.

Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.

 

[Transk53]

Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.

Probably so, but don't discount the fighters instinct, that just simply shines through

 

[Tez3]

I don't train mma, don't watch it much, and don't claim to be an expert on the subject, I'm not a fanboy. I just give credit where it's due, you don't have to be a fanboy to know what mma had done for the martial arts. I'm okay with not being the best or most well rounded fighter, I dont plan on fighting anyone so I don't really care, I don't claim to be the best. I train really hard at what I do for my own sake and I don't have to discredit mma or say "it's just a sport" just because I don't do it. As for tkd did you read my post? I just mentioned that it may be an up and coming component of mma but it's still not tried and true like Muay thai. I wouldn't be surprised if the guys pulling off tkd moves had a significant amount of Muay thai under their belt.

What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States may be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art.

Of course mma is a business if it wasn't we'd still have the same ruleset/ format from ufc one. But who wants to see a guy hold someone in guard for an hour? I'm not sure how being coached to win a fight isn't good for martial arts. The problem with martial arts is anyone can teach it, you can teach without having ever been in a fight. Than you have generations of guys who've never fought telling students the best way to fight or taking moves developed eons ago by someone who did have fighting experience and trying to understand it or modify it. Mma or any fighting competition is the remedy for this, if you compete you know what will work on a strong athletic person trying to hurt you. If you don't compete you might get in a street brawl here or there and you may win. But that's an unsavory life style and you're not fighting skilled opponents. You could train to best unskilled people and fail when you run across a skilled person or you could train to beat a skilled fighter from the start.

Not everyone wants to fight and not everyone trains to fight but instead trains to defend themselves if attacked, these situations are the same as a competitive fight so many feel they don't need to train 'fighting' or to 'test' it in the ring or cage. Coaching someone to fight MMA is a very different beast to coaching someone to defend themselves I can assure you. Knowledge of your opponent and the tactics one will use against them ranks high on the agenda when it's for competition, you focus on the particular techniques you need to defeat that opponent whereas you have to train for the unknown in self defence. Your opponent is not trying to mug, rape or kill you, they will pull back from causing anymore harm than necessary you cannot say that in a street brawl. What we do with our MMA fighters is quite different from what we teach our self defence classes.

Many martial arts instructors don't actually teach their students to 'fight' they teach their students firstly how to avoid fights if at all possible then to defend themselves from attacks. Attackers, skilled or not are attacking you with intent to hurt, maim and/or kill you, the sheer ferocity you can find in a 'street' attack doesn't match what you will face in an MMA fight. An MMA fighter is focused on winning, they are using their brain to work out the techniques and strategies to beat you, a 'street' attacker is coming to break your head, arms or legs, perhaps all three and maybe rape you as well.

Fighting MMA will stand you in good stead if you attacked there's no doubt, you won't (or shouldn't) freeze if hit, you should be able to react instinctively, it will give you an edge no doubt but so will training hard in many martial arts. the 'MMA' effect isn't as big as perhaps you imagine. I am TMA and MMA, I see things from both sides.

 

[Hanzou]

Well if the founder of shotokan didn't want sparring or fighting there's a good chance guys like Hanzou didn't do much of it in class as such when he fought the boxer he didn't fare well. That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.

Well we actually did spar. The problem is that we never sparred against other styles to test what worked and didn't. A simple fight against a Boxing school for example would expose the weaknesses of Karate against western boxing. Instead, we just sparred each other, seeing who was better at Karate. Its better than not sparring at all, but it was not optimal. In order to truly see where you stand on the pecking order, you need to test your style against other approaches. In the end, both are better for the exchange.

That's why I'm happy MMA came along.

 

[Danny T]

I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.

I believe you can have honest discussion without argument. If you are going have an argument then that argument should as well be honest. The problem with argument is there are those who disregard honesty, truth, fact, fiction and impart opinion based upon what they want the truth to be vs being open to and acknowledging when they are incorrect in their argument. When the argument is such there is no honest discussion only opinion.

 

[Jake104]

As for getting kicked in the head, you can solve that problem by not traveling around by yourself, or utilizing Bjj techniques that don't require you to fully engage on the ground, like knee on belly or modified mount.



The thread only descends into chaos if we allow it to. People shouldn't let their emotions get in the way of honest discussion.

I finally agree with you! But are you saying Ground fighting is only good in a controlled environment and not if you are alone? See, are we arguing cause there is a point or just for the point of arguing?

You know there is a fight " Gracie Challenge vid" in one of there backyards in Brazil. Backyard like soccer field or drug cartel backyard. But anyway there are people from both sides. As you watch the two fighting you can see the bystanders really wanting to jump in. But like you said before, there are people there from both sides. So no one did.. So yeah it's always wise to travel "deep" like we used to say. So I agree. Wahoo!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's what happens when you train a fighting art that doesn't fight, you build a false sense of confidence and when the pressure goes up, technique goes out the window. A solid art will teach you how to perform under pressure. Any system has the potential to do this but not all of them do.

How do you test your striking art such as your WC system? Unless you and your opponent both try to knock each other down, there is no "effective way" to test your striking skill. How many people are willing to get punched with full power on the head every day?

If you can use your

- "single leg" to take your opponent down 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "single leg" skill. This is totally doable.
- "arm bar" to tap your opponent out on the ground 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "arm bar" skill. This is also doable.
- "hook punch" to knock your opponent down 1,000 times, you know that you have a good "hook punch" skill. The problem is, is this doable?

The grappling art has the advantage to have a safe environment to train while the striking art doesn't.

It's easier for a grappler to build up his combat experience. It's difficult for a striker to build up the same level of combat experience before he can get serious brain damage.

 

[Transk53]

What has MMA done for martial arts? To be honest not nearly as much as you'd probably think. The TMA's have carried on just the same as they have always done and some of those that fancy fighting have gone to MMA. Not much more than that to be honest. Many of our British and European fighters are from TKD not Muay Thai and it is very well tested. I understand though that TKD in the States may be seen as more for children or an Olympic sport than it is over here where it is a very robust martial art.



Not everyone wants to fight and not everyone trains to fight but instead trains to defend themselves if attacked, these situations are the same as a competitive fight so many feel they don't need to train 'fighting' or to 'test' it in the ring or cage. Coaching someone to fight MMA is a very different beast to coaching someone to defend themselves I can assure you. Knowledge of your opponent and the tactics one will use against them ranks high on the agenda when it's for competition, you focus on the particular techniques you need to defeat that opponent whereas you have to train for the unknown in self defence. Your opponent is not trying to mug, rape or kill you, they will pull back from causing anymore harm than necessary you cannot say that in a street brawl. What we do with our MMA fighters is quite different from what we teach our self defence classes.

Many martial arts instructors don't actually teach their students to 'fight' they teach their students firstly how to avoid fights if at all possible then to defend themselves from attacks. Attackers, skilled or not are attacking you with intent to hurt, maim and/or kill you, the sheer ferocity you can find in a 'street' attack doesn't match what you will face in an MMA fight. An MMA fighter is focused on winning, they are using their brain to work out the techniques and strategies to beat you, a 'street' attacker is coming to break your head, arms or legs, perhaps all three and maybe rape you as well.

Fighting MMA will stand you in good stead if you attacked there's no doubt, you won't (or shouldn't) freeze if hit, you should be able to react instinctively, it will give you an edge no doubt but so will training hard in many martial arts. the 'MMA' effect isn't as big as perhaps you imagine. I am TMA and MMA, I see things from both sides.

Nice reply. I would plus 1 if I could. Anyway very agreeable

 

[Tez3]

Well we actually did spar. The problem is that we never sparred against other styles to test what worked and didn't. A simple fight against a Boxing school for example would expose the weaknesses of Karate against western boxing. Instead, we just sparred each other, seeing who was better at Karate. Its better than not sparring at all, but it was not optimal. In order to truly see where you stand on the pecking order, you need to test your style against other approaches. In the end, both are better for the exchange.

That's why I'm happy MMA came along.

My experience in karate is completely different, we sparred regularly and competed regularly in full contact karate comps.

The thing with wanting to spar against other styles is not that it tests karate but that it tests you. Your karate style can be absolutely spot on but are you? Are you confident in your abilities? It's nothing to do with the style but a journey to test yourself, your style can produce world champion full contact fighters but are you up to it? Now that's why people want to 'pressure test' their style, at least that's what they call it, in reality, they are testing themselves, measuring themselves against others.


On Shotokan history "In 1927, three men, Miki, Bo and Hirayama decided that kata practice was not enough and tried to introduce jiyukumite (free-fighting). They devised protective clothig and used kendo masks in their matches in order to utilise full contact. Funakoshi heard about these bouts and, when he could not discourage such attempts at what he considered belittling to the art of karate, he stopped coming to the Shichi-Tokudo" The founder of Wado Ryu left Shotokan because he wanted sparring and Funakoshi didn't.

 

[Jake104]

Agree to the thread or the argument? Haha

Idk, I lost track!

 

[Jake104]

It can happen in China as well.

It will be fun to train how to take your opponent down and his head is just within your kicking range.

Yes, I think heads in any geographical location or culture are begging to be kicked. Haha