How to improve in Kata ?

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think there's still personal expression in the performance of KKW forms, even though the techniques are very standardized.

Agree!

beginner level (learning stage) - you copy every moves down from your teacher.
intermediate level (polishing stage) - you make every moves to be perfect.
advance level (art stage) - you add your "personal flavor" and make it into "art".

But that may be more subtle than the kind of help Azulx is looking for.

I think the OP is only interested in "how to improve in Kata" and not "What's the best way to train Kata"?

 

[Hyoho]

But you have point. Maybe too much flavour and not enough kata (fundamentals). But I think it should be character not flavour.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But you have point. Maybe too much flavour and not enough kata (fundamentals). But I think it should be character not flavour.

If you (general YOU) are still concern about "fundamentals", you are still in the beginner training stage. You should not worry about "flavor" at all. "This is a book" is beginner English. "To be, or not to be" is not beginner English.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bunkai. Practice. Partners.

 

[Azulx]

My school has ways to train Hyungs, we break off in our ranks and the senior leads us in practice. We do floor drills but mainly focus on the basic techniques and stances. I am looking for ways that not only I can further improve my forms, but help my fellow classmates improve their forms. As far as flavor, I don't think we have a variation of flavor in our forms from student to student. With that being said we don't all do forms 100% alike. Some of us look more natural than others, but we don't have too many variations of executing techniques. The only minor variations that I have seen is the execution of a circular block and a bending stance. These are both seen for the first in our green belt form Won-Hyo. We also have a pushing block in our red belt form some tuck their finger in like a palm heel, some don't .

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As far as flavor, I don't think we have a variation of flavor in our forms from student to student. With that being said we don't all do forms 100% alike.

I agree that flavor is important, but you shouldn't be worrying about flavor yet. That is when you have done the form so many times already you can do it in your sleep. For now just focus on dissecting the form, bunkai, and doing the form in as many novel ways as possible (which will help you with dissecting-pay attention to what feels awkward or off when you do the form with eyes closed, reversing sides, etc.)

 

[Zeny]

First, do it correctly, if there is an official textbook with illustration for your kata, your kata as perfomed should look like that.

Second, understand it, ask why did the creators design it that way? What is the purpose for any particular move?

Third, repeat it diligently, after you become used to the kata, imagine that you are a newbie and doing it for the first time. Repeat this endless cycle.

Fourth, keep doing it, don't lose interest after a few years. Keep at it.

Fifth, play with the kata movements when training with partners. You'll gain more insights into your kata that you never knew before.

The personal flavour will come by itself after some time. It is not something you consciously set out to acquire.

 

[Hyoho]

If you (general YOU) are still concern about "fundamentals", you are still in the beginner training stage. You should not worry about "flavor" at all. "This is a book" is beginner English. "To be, or not to be" is not beginner English.

Usually in Japanese arts you add nothing until you reach at least 5th dan.

 

[Azulx]

First, do it correctly, if there is an official textbook with illustration for your kata, your kata as perfomed should look like that.

Second, understand it, ask why did the creators design it that way? What is the purpose for any particular move?

Third, repeat it diligently, after you become used to the kata, imagine that you are a newbie and doing it for the first time. Repeat this endless cycle.

Fourth, keep doing it, don't lose interest after a few years. Keep at it.

Fifth, play with the kata movements when training with partners. You'll gain more insights into your kata that you never knew before.

The personal flavour will come by itself after some time. It is not something you consciously set out to acquire.

1. Student manual only has the word description, instructor manual has both picture and text.
2.I do this for every move and if I don't get a clear understanding from my instructor I usually go out and research further on my own. That research sometimes leads me here to this forum.
3. I do repeat the Hyung over and over again. Although I have never tried to do it picturing myself as white belt. I'll try that.
4. I like performing the hyungs, that were for my previous ranks. I try and do them better than I did before when I was the previous rank.
5. I should try this too. I will occasionally try a Hyung move during sparring, but some moves aren't meant for sparring conditions.
6. I have no interest in doing things with personal flavour. I try and do things either exactly as I'm taught or as close to the original as possible.
7. Thank you for your insight

 

[Azulx]

I agree that flavor is important, but you shouldn't be worrying about flavor yet. That is when you have done the form so many times already you can do it in your sleep. For now just focus on dissecting the form, bunkai, and doing the form in as many novel ways as possible (which will help you with dissecting-pay attention to what feels awkward or off when you do the form with eyes closed, reversing sides, etc.)

I just learned recently (Like 3 months ago) what bunkai was. We don't practice this at our school. I don't evn know if there is a Korean word equivalent to 'Bunkai.' Although I do think it would be effective to practice the techniques in the forms as independent fighting techniques and not just as choreographed movements.

 

[Azulx]

Usually in Japanese arts you add nothing until you reach at least 5th dan.

I'm in a Korean art, but my instructor has never mentioned anything bout adding your personal anything, so I wouldn't evn know when you do that or even if you are meant to do that.

 

[Azulx]

I think the OP is only interested in "how to improve in Kata" and not "What's the best way to train Kata"?

Sometimes I don't clearly state what I'm looking for in the question I post, I apologize for that. The purpose of me starting this forum, was because I was paired up with a blue belt, to help show him his new form. My instructor knew, that I knew this form well. I used the form in competitions and I actually practiced this specific for numerous times, because it was my competition form. the reason I used this form was because it had the most moves out of all the colored belt forms (38 moves).

When teaching him the form I noticed how he would struggle to do a simple front stance,and he had trouble transitioning from stance to stance. So I didn't let him go past a certain set of moves, because the stances were so poor. My instructor prefers me to teach all of the form so the student is aware of the moves, and he can "perfect" the stances later. I didn't know if it was better to go through the whole thing and work on everything later, or not let him advance until he has done the first few moves at a decent standard?

 

[Azulx]

All forms/Katas were created by human being. If a form/Kata can be created 200 years ago, a new form/Kata can be created today. 200 years from today, your new created form/Kata will be traditional too.

This is an interesting statement. Although the forms 200 years ago, etc. were created by human beings. These human beings to my knowledge dedicated their lives to the martial art they were creating or practicing. There are human beings who have been black belts for under 5 years who try and create/ change traditional forms to improve them or make the more 'modern', and I don't see much merit in doing so.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm in a Korean art, but my instructor has never mentioned anything bout adding your personal anything, so I wouldn't evn know when you do that or even if you are meant to do that.

That is because (based on the amount of experience you've stated you had in other threads) you are not anywhere near the level for that yet.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

When teaching him the form I noticed how he would struggle to do a simple front stance,and he had trouble transitioning from stance to stance. So I didn't let him go past a certain set of moves, because the stances were so poor. My instructor prefers me to teach all of the form so the student is aware of the moves, and he can "perfect" the stances later. I didn't know if it was better to go through the whole thing and work on everything later, or not let him advance until he has done the first few moves at a decent standard?

Both of these are valid ways to teach a form, and if you wait for them to get the form completely perfect before moving on, they will die before learning it fully. In that situation, follow your instructor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he had trouble transitioning from stance to stance.

In ballroom dancing, you learn box step first before you learn the dance. In Chinese MA, people learn stances first. They then learn how to transfer from stance to stance (such as from front bow-arrow stance to horse stance, ...) before they start to learn form/Kata.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Usually in Japanese arts you add nothing until you reach at least 5th dan.

The history will tell whether the form/Kata that you have created will have any value or not. A good form will last forever. A bad form won't.

Sometime you want to create form just because what you want to train doesn't exist in any form.

Here is a good example.

Here is another example.

 

[JR 137]

I'm in a Korean art, but my instructor has never mentioned anything bout adding your personal anything, so I wouldn't evn know when you do that or even if you are meant to do that.

IMO you can't help but bring your own "flavor" as people have called it. Everyone has different strengths and abilities. Try as I may, I'll never perform a kata exactly as my teacher(s) does. Try as he may (although it would be downgrading him ), he'll never perform a kata exactly as I do.

Your own strengths and weaknesses show in everything you do. It's all about decreasing weaknesses and further developing strengths. Don't try to revolutionize the way the kata is performed.

 

[Hyoho]

I'm in a Korean art, but my instructor has never mentioned anything bout adding your personal anything, so I wouldn't even know when you do that or even if you are meant to do that.

Nothing wrong with that at all. It's only natural that some of your character bleeds into what you do. Problem is if it goes in too early it replaces and substitutes distinct fundamentals with your own interpretation. There is always a grey area that allows slight adaptation. When we perform of watch embu this is the enjoyment we can get from it. To see others character come out without messing things up. Some ryu actually work on adaptation and never show waza to the public.

 

[Hyoho]

The history will tell whether the form/Kata that you have created will have any value or not. A good form will last forever. A bad form won't.

Sometime you want to create form just because what you want to train doesn't exist in any form.

Here is a good example.

Here is another example.

There are two kinds of kata (form/shape). Those that are totally made up and are a written in books. The one nearest to 'what is written' progresses. Or a part or section of a waza (tried and tested technique) that has been broken down to examine and practice it in detail on your own or possibly in pairwork. Only an idiot would make up stuff that has little knowledge of fundamentals and I guess will be quick to post it on YouTube.