How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?

How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?

  • It should be given by STUDENTS within HIS/HER organization

  • It should be given by Other high ranking official within Kenpo/Kempo community

  • It should be given by HIMSELF/HERSELF whether he/she sees it fits

  • It should be MINE because I'm a son of Grandmaster

  • Only the Founder of the Art deserves it

  • None of the above


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Joe,

Thanks. Just need to correct you on one thing. John Bishop is the one that has "time will either promote you or expose you" at the end of his posts.



-John
 
It's just a title. Like all titles it means differant things to differant organizations or styles.
"President" is a really impressive title. But the president of a company with 10 employees is not the same as the president of IBM. And the president of IBM is not the same as the President of the United States. So should these company Presidents find some another title to use?

I've seen the title "Professor" used for ranks from 6th degree in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, 6th degree in Limalama, 6-7 degrees in some styles of Kenpo, and 8th degree in Kajukenbo.

"Grandmaster" does not automatically mean the head or founder of a system. Other titles like "O'Sensei", "Soke", "Hanshi", "Sijo", Great Grandmaster, Senior Grandmaster, etc., etc. are also used.

There is never going to be uniformity in martial arts titles, because they are so diverse in their culture and traditions.
There are Japanese traditions, Chinese traditions, Korean traditions, Indonesian traditions, Filipino traditions, even American traditions now.
So the way the title "Grandmaster" is used is always going to be up to the system or organization. The lowest level I've seen it used was for 6th degree in some Tae Kwon Do organizations.
In my system it's used for 9th degree and the founders title is "Sijo".

But like I said in the beginning, it's just a title. It means differant things to differant people.
 
Hey John (Evans), I know John but I wasn't quoting but 'paraphrasing' this part of your post: "You'll be judged by others, expect that, but let history be the real judge. If your school branches out and before you're dead you have several masters passing on your teachings, then you really are/were the grandmaster. If your school ends when your dead.... who cares..... you're dead".

In a nutshell, I took it to mean 'time will either promote you or expose you', lol. Take care my friend, Joe
 
Great posts...

The thing about these titles is that sometimes ( as i cannot attest to every master being like this) they get a little...inflated. If some one were to walk up to me and say "I'm Master Sum Gai" I think I would be a little weary of that person... Here is a person who doesn't even know me and he expects me to submit to him...

If his name was George Bush (not an endorsement , just an example) then that would be a belt of a different color. "Yes, Mr President, nice to meet you Sir," would be my response.

But if Sum Gai were to walk up and use the above greeting, would it be appropriate for me to respond to his greeting with , "hey Master Sum Gai I'm Sum Dood and I am a master of Manga...Pleased to meet you" just because I have skill with a pencil?

I feel there has to be a line drawn some where and along that line there should be some sort of reckoning for these titles. There is even a guy in my area who legally changed his name to some WeIrD sounding euro-title to make it sound like he was lord of the manner.

Too weird for me...
If I want a master...I'll give Yoda a call...
Regards,
Walt
 
Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"?

There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles. I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster". They would probably have a blast schmoozing :)

Martial arts "grandmasters" are as common as little league coaches and girl scout leaders--maybe more so. The term really means nothing other than the holder of the title is into marketing. All of the fancy ceritificates from like-minded cronies, all the pretty multi-colored belts with stripes and delicately embroidered kanji to show that this bird is one rare pigeon...does it make a punch more than a punch?

Should we bow lower, or wait and watch?



Happiness,

M.C. Busman
 
M.C. Busman said:
Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"?

There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles. I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster". They would probably have a blast schmoozing :)

Martial arts "grandmasters" are as common as little league coaches and girl scout leaders--maybe more so. The term really means nothing other than the holder of the title is into marketing. All of the fancy ceritificates from like-minded cronies, all the pretty multi-colored belts with stripes and delicately embroidered kanji to show that this bird is one rare pigeon...does it make a punch more than a punch?

Should we bow lower, or wait and watch?



Happiness,

M.C. Busman


I hear ya, sir but I was once told not to stress myself out over things I have no control over but to divert my energies to things I can change or at least make a difference at. Not to sound morbid but we're all going to die, so do I stress myself out over that or do I put it aside, move on and live my life? Not that you are stressing over it but just my point for those who are.

Good will to you too, Mr. Busman, Joe
 
M.C. Busman said:
Introducing oneself as "soke", "master", or "grandmaster"...does the President introduce himself as "President__________"?

There is such an extreme emphasis on ranks and titles. I'd venture to guess that in the USA alone we could fill at least one football stadium with men who call themselves "grandmaster". They would probably have a blast schmoozing :)

Martial arts "grandmasters" are as common as little league coaches and girl scout leaders--maybe more so. The term really means nothing other than the holder of the title is into marketing. All of the fancy ceritificates from like-minded cronies, all the pretty multi-colored belts with stripes and delicately embroidered kanji to show that this bird is one rare pigeon...does it make a punch more than a punch?

Should we bow lower, or wait and watch?



Happiness,

M.C. Busman



Nicely said , Sir.

I totally agree with the statement from Joe in that such things should not be stressed over as in such stress, these "masters" effect a measure of control.

I am left to wonder however, how these people can continue doing such nonsense with such venues as the internet present. With the overabundance of information available... I am curious if all this "master bashing" doesn't lead all the grand pubah's to change their titles? Will we see a better marketing scheme from them that more acurately relfects the martial arts ettiquete of the times? Or will they continue in the vein of the person who was recently debuted on this web site ( the TKD master who had several ranks from several arts and added them up to say that he was a 14th degee :bow: ) and reach for more heinous claims.

I have a friend right now who is training in Japan. He says that when the martial artists over there ask him about training in America...they often ask him how many grand masters he knows and if he has ever gotten an autograph. Kinda makes you wonder...how gaudy can we get?

Regards,
Walt
 
I have to admit I voted none of the above, since I don't care for titles, in my opinion actions speak louder than words/ I don't judge people based on reputation, but by personal experience.

Just my personal opinion
 
Overall, I think this whole issue is rather defunct.... just my opinion.
Regardless of rank or titles, each person's mind is made up about who is in charge, who knows what and who the real 'authorities' are. Inflation of ego happens, no doubt!!! But really, when a person puts on a title or a rank, THEY are the ones that are going to have to live up to it. That rank will either honor them or MOCK them, no matter how they came by it.


Your Brother
John
 
Billy Lear said:
The encyclopedia was put out after he died. Sorry. Some of the stuff in there is incorrect. :asian:
Correct. Any contradiction between the Infinite Insights and the Ecyclopedia is resolved as Mr. Lear says. Mr. Parker wrote and supervised the completeion of Infinite Insights in the late seventies and early eighties. The Encyclopedia was published from a series of notes in his office after he passed away, for those who feel that may make a difference.

My opinion, Kenpo has so many senior "grand" and grand "masters" its a joke. The term does not exist within elements within my control and has no meaning for me for those who have chosen to wear the term. I studied with the only "Grand" or otherwise "master" American Kenpo ever had or will have. His name was Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr. Everyone else is a wannabee.

No disrespect:)
 
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I think that context is everything here. I'm a high school teacher. Titles have their place, but it can go too far. If another adult is talking directly to me way from the students, then he or she simply calls me "Dan". However, if that same person is talking to me in my classroom, or around students, then it is "Mr. Weston". Same goes for my principal. He has a doctorate, and thus is addressed Dr. _______ when he is functioning in his official capacity. But, if I go talk to him privately I call him by his first name. Same goes for a professor friend of mine. At the school he teaches at, or when referring to him to someone else in his capacity as a teacher, it's Dr.__________. When its just him and me, or someone else that knows him away from work, then its back to the first name basis. Context is everything, I think. There's a time and a place for titles, and there's a time when it's too much and something less formal is called for.
 
If the martial arts are a way of life and not just a hobby,does that not mean we reatin the virtues of your training outside the Dojo?

Yet the kindnesses and courtesies are the first thing we forget? is it not that our instructors are making an indelible print on us, yet we would rather equalize the relationship the minute we set foot outside the door?
Todd
 
The Kai said:
If the martial arts are a way of life and not just a hobby,does that not mean we reatin the virtues of your training outside the Dojo?

Yet the kindnesses and courtesies are the first thing we forget? is it not that our instructors are making an indelible print on us, yet we would rather equalize the relationship the minute we set foot outside the door?
Todd
Well, we don't live in a feudal society in the USA. We live in a democracy where all are citizens etc. and titles are used in a limited way. It has nothing to do with respect as such, but rather with the idea that we are all merely citizens. We are not "subjects" like in a monarchy and there is not the social class system that is supposed to go along with such a society. That there is a context to when and how titles are used here does not imply a disrespect for the instructor to me. It says that there is a time and place for them, and they should definitely be used in those places and at such times. In certain countries there are different classes of citizens, but not here. At least not in theory. Therefore, these things need to be kept in their proper perspective. To me it is not a matter of becoming discourteous or unkind when one leaves the dojo. It is a matter of the American spirit and values setting a limit on when and where titles are to be used. In a society of rigid class structure an Earl is ALWAYS an Earl to those in the lower classes etc. Americans have always had an uneasy time with titles. They recognize the need for them to an extent, but they hate the implication that goes along with them. No one here wants to accept the idea of being a second-class citizen and so we limit the use of our titles to the context of where they directly apply. If it is a martial arts setting, forum, or when referring to some one in the context of the martial arts, using their title to refer to them or address them is proper. Outside of that, perhaps not. My rule of thumb is that I call someone by their title when I am at the dojo. However, if they have a real issue with dropping it at other times, then I'll continue it outside also. That will tend to limit my outside interaction with them, however as I would tend to feel a barrier to the friendship if they insisted on keeping the class distinction there at all times.
 
You know, I just thought of an exception to my own theory here. Even in America, we still call our parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles by their "titles" out of respect. Regardless of how old we get etc. It is not considered demeaning, nor is it considered being a second-class citizen. It's simply out of love and respect. In that context, in the context of "Ohana" I can easily call someone by their title regardless of when or where.
 
A grandmaster must have ALL of the following qualifications:

1. minimum of 9th degree black (or red) belt on his main martial arts style,
2. 3rd degree or 3rd dan on at least 2 other forms of martial arts,
3. must possess knowledge on reflexology as applied or relative to his main
form of martial arts,
4. have the ability to perform emergency life-saving measures in the event
of an accident in a dojo,
5. must have a well-developed course outline/lesson plan to teach his
martial arts,
6. have the ability to compose, execute, and teach his own (original) kata
or forms, and
7. have a good moral character and no criminal record.

The title of a Grandmaster must be bestowed upon a candidate after having been certified by another grandmaster or by a council of grandmasters.
 
A grandmaster must have ALL of the following qualifications:

1. minimum of 9th degree black (or red) belt on his main martial arts style,
2. 3rd degree or 3rd dan on at least 2 other forms of martial arts,
3. must possess knowledge on reflexology as applied or relative to his main
form of martial arts,
4. have the ability to perform emergency life-saving measures in the event
of an accident in a dojo,
5. must have a well-developed course outline/lesson plan to teach his
martial arts,
6. have the ability to compose, execute, and teach his own (original) kata
or forms, and
7. have a good moral character and no criminal record.

The title of a Grandmaster must be bestowed upon a candidate after having been certified by another grandmaster or by a council of grandmasters.
(1) Just for clarification - a red belt in TKD is below black belt.

(2) Are you saying that if I only study one style my whole life that I could not end up being a grandmaster of that style?

(3) I've known many people who posses great skills and understanding of reflexology but couldn't give you the text book answers one might expect. That doesn't mean they don't understand. They just understand differently.

(4) I think all martial artists should take at least your basic first aid and cpr course. And be refreshed on it every couple of years or so.

(5) I known many teachers that don't have a detialed lesson plan that are still able to pass on their knowledge quite effectively.

(6) What about the honorable grandmaster would has fallen ill and must remain in a wheel chair? Certainly he cannot execute the kata, but can certainly still teach them.

(7) Having good moral character and no criminal record doesn't mean you don't have skills and a following of students.

(last point) This is the chicken / egg problem. Who was the first grandmaster that can give out this title?


I can't agree with any of your points. I believe I understand where your thoughts are and can agree with your ideals. But in my opinion, what you've stated just isn't reality.

And just to be clear - I am in no way attacking you or trying to diminish your statements. I'm just disagreeing.


-John
 
The tittle of grandmaster should be handed down to someone after he/she has passed away, be writtin in the former Grandmaster's will and told by his lawyer so there is to be no war over the tittle. The former Grandmaster should tell no one who he wants to be his sucsessor..................and we should all respect his decision on the passing of the torch.
 
Danjo and Kosho Monk, excellent points. I tend to agree.
 
People get way to caught up in titles.

I view a legitimate 10th degree as a Grandmaster and don't think it should be restricted to a founder.

If there is anyone in Kenpo who deserves the title of Grandmaster (whether or not he chooses to use it), it's Larry Tatum.

Jamie Seabrook

http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
 
First Degree Black Belt = Junior Instructor

Second Degree Black Belt = Associate Instructor

Third Degree Black Belt = Head Instructor

Fourth Degree Black Belt = Senior Instructor

Fifth Degree Black Belt = Associate Professor

Sixth Degree Black Belt = Professor

Seventh Degree Black Belt = Senior Professor

Eighth Degree Black Belt = Associate Master of the Arts

Ninth Degree Black Belt = Master of the Arts

Tenth Degree Black Belt = Senior Master of the Arts


Who deserves to be called "Grandmaster"? :idunno:
 
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