How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?

[Goldendragon7]

Orig posted by tshadowchaser
I think there are to many claiming the title of Grandmaster in organisations 1-2 yars old. Titles such as Senior Master, Master, Senior Professor, Head instructor, Associate Instructor, Instructor of teachers, teacher can all be used at lower levels. just my thought on the matter

Well said.

:asian:

 

[Rick Wade]

Grand Master is a Term in Kenpo that is held in a sense of "Reverence” so to speack. We referred to MR. Parker as Grand Master because he is the founder of our system. Now let us compare the term grandmaster to another community like say “America” we can only have one President and after he is voted out of Office we still refer to him as Mr. President when addressing him. With that being said Maybe the head of a system American Kenpo, Tracy Kenpo should be called Grand Master. Maybe we should adopt a new term for the founder of a system like Great Grand Master. They still have the highest rank achievable which is 10th degree black belt, but they are know as Great Grand Master. Would this solve all of the problems…..
Probably just create more forms of what we all know is just pure Kenpo. If everyone would quit worrying about rank and get in the dojo and study we wouldn’t have these problems. Quit worrying about politics and who has what rank and study the arts and they arts. We should appreciate the fact that we can study the art of American Kenpo. My personal belief there is one Grand Master in American Kenpo…. Mr. Parker. Master Odo studied two different forms Kenpo for several Decades and came up with Okinawan Kenpo. No one called him Grand Master. He was simply Master Odo. And I am simply a student and fan of American Kenpo

Thanks for reading
Rick English
%think%

 

[Cruentus]

I decided to give my answer as a non-kenpoist. So you guys can laugh me out of your forum when I'm done.

I put "none of the above" because I think that the Grandmaster title could be valid if 1. It is granted by the (most senior) grandmaster prior to death, acknowledging "next in line" so to speak, 2. Your the founder of a credable art, 3. You are given the title by peers who are "masters" and who agree that you should have the title, 4. You have a large following of students who refer to you as "Grandmaster" no matter what you try to do.

I probebly didn't help out at all, but I just think that there are a few reasons the title could be valid.

Sincerely,

PAUL
Supreme Grandmaster
(kidding, of course)

 

[Seig]

The title Senior Master was reserved for Mr. Parker. Everyone else is either a Grand Master or a Senior Master. If you look at the way that the American Kenpo titles are laid out, it is fairly clear, and like the rest of Kenpo, logical.
1st Black- Junior Instructor
2nd Black- Assosciate (or Assistant, varies from org to org) Instructor
3rd Black- Head Instructor
4th Black- Senior Instructor
5th Black- Assosciate Professor
6th Black- Professor
7th Black- Senior Professor
8th Black- Assosciate Master of the Arts
9th Black- Master of the Arts
10th Black- Senior Master of the Arts
Senior Grand Master of the Arts is reserved for the founder of the system.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Seig
"Senior" Grand Master of the Arts is reserved for the founder of the system (Edmund K. Parker).

I agree that the title "Senior" Grand Master is and should be for Mr. Parker only.

Many "Kenpoists" of Parker decent have formed their own Associations or groups for one reason or another, which is fine, and each can have it's own Senior Master's and Grandmaster as I see it.

The problem is... how everyone defines [[SYSTEM]].
Most are doing (in essence) Ed Parker's ideals and principle works, only expanding or rearranging or putting different spins (which Ed Parker taught them to do anyways), this does not qualify as a different "system" in my book.

But hey, until we create a Kenpo Police Force (KPF), it isn't going to change. :rofl:


:asian:

 

[theneuhauser]

Kenpo Police Force!


Cool, Im in!

 

[kroh]

If a person really wants to call themselves by this type of title... who are we to argue...IMHO a person can and should go by any name they want. THis is America and they have that right.

personally, anyone who walked up to me and introduced themselves as master, i would have to walk away to keep from laughing in their face.

This is where i have a problem. In this country (U.S.A.)...titles often come with consequences. If you call yourself an M.D. you not only have to have your initial certification for everyone to see but you also have to be recertified on a regular basis. You have to be able to back it up at ALL times, especially with the sue happy culture we live in. If you certify yourself as a master or grandmaster or grand pubah.... You should have the paper and historical fact to back it. As well as being answerable to a higher authority. These kind of titles along with the kind of society we live in could potentially cause stress with the government and cause some poor suit wearing dude in DC to decide to regulate the lot of us. It nearly happened a few years ago in New Jersey and it could happen anywhere.


Think of it this way, boxers, plumbers, electricians, artists, web designers, are often called masters of their trade and yet DO NOT go by this title publicly. When was the last time the plumber came in and introduced him self as Master BOB.

A person has the right to be adressed in any maner they want to be in this country. You can even change your name to make it legally so...

Just don't be shocked or surprised when the rest of us laugh at you for doing so...

 

[RCastillo]

Give it to me, you won't be sorry!

 

[Seig]

To my students, I am simply Mr. Seigel, my instructor is Mr. C. We do not use the fancy titles other than in corespondence and marketing.

 

[Mark L]

I practice at an independent school, my instructor is fifth degree, ha asks us to call him Greg. Most of the other schools I've attended used Mr. or Mrs. In introductory situations I use Sensei. I never really thought about using Master until a seminar recently when we were told we should address the guest as Master. My reaction was no, I won't. The seminar was very informative and I have much respect for the abilities demonstrated there, I just can't bring myself to call someone Master.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Mark L
I practice at an independent school, my instructor is fifth degree, ha asks us to call him Greg. Most of the other schools I've attended used Mr. or Mrs. In introductory situations I use Sensei. I never really thought about using Master until a seminar recently when we were told we should address the guest as Master. My reaction was no, I won't. The seminar was very informative and I have much respect for the abilities demonstrated there, I just can't bring myself to call someone Master.

A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.

The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue. How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with. However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner). Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so.

We must all be conscious (in our mixed cultural world of different customs and rituals that are practiced). We cannot or shouldn't press our desires, customs and beliefs upon others. Respect of others property and customs on their turf are important, if we want them to respect ours.

I realize that in some instances it may go against your personal religious beleifs or other believs well in this case if is not possible to comply, then you should not mingle or participate in the activity or setting unless you comply with the rules of the area.

How would it be if we took this attitude to driving in Europe.... Hell I find it uncomfortable to drive on the right side of the road!

or ..... I don't feel like calling the judge at a trial "your honor".

or.... I don't feel like addressing the head of a country as customarily done.. I'd say..... Hi ya George jr....

I think you get the point. We do have the right in our own organizations, camps, or seminars or within our personal boundaries to enforce our Customs....

Please don't tell me you want to take that right away!

:asian:

 

[Rick Wade]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.

We must all be conscious (in our mixed cultural world of different customs and rituals that are practiced). We cannot or shouldn't press our desires, customs and beliefs upon others. Respect of others property and customs on their turf are important, if we want them to respect ours.

:asian:

Great Job Dragon.

I think as long as you’re the head of "your" system you should be addressed as "Great Grand Master" as in Shoalin Kenpo. And every other 10th degree should be addressed as Grand Master. But in everyday conversation outside the dojo I would probably address them as Mr. or Mrs. *****. The reason for the Ranks is the fact that Mr. Parker liked the rank structure he saw in the Coast Guard. It is my opinion that he created that somewhat in the Blackbelt ranks (rather than just call them fifth degree blackbelt).

Thanks

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.

The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue. How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with. However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner). Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so.

We must all be conscious (in our mixed cultural world of different customs and rituals that are practiced). We cannot or shouldn't press our desires, customs and beliefs upon others. Respect of others property and customs on their turf are important, if we want them to respect ours.

I realize that in some instances it may go against your personal religious beleifs or other believs well in this case if is not possible to comply, then you should not mingle or participate in the activity or setting unless you comply with the rules of the area.

How would it be if we took this attitude to driving in Europe.... Hell I find it uncomfortable to drive on the right side of the road!

or ..... I don't feel like calling the judge at a trial "your honor".

or.... I don't feel like addressing the head of a country as customarily done.. I'd say..... Hi ya George jr....

I think you get the point. We do have the right in our own organizations, camps, or seminars or within our personal boundaries to enforce our Customs....

Please don't tell me you want to take that right away!

:asian:

So, that's why you hit me in the throat, broke my arm, generally said my Kenpo bites, took my self esteem, ran it into the ground..........

I'm too choked up to say more.................

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rick Wade
I think as long as you’re the head of "your" system you should be addressed as "Great Grand Master" as in Shoalin Kenpo. And every other 10th degree should be addressed as Grand Master.

I thank you for the compliment.

It should be noted that "Great Grand Master Castro" (Shaolin Kenpo), achieved this title by promoting or (bringing up) a Grand Master (His son).

In American Kenpo, (those that claim to be decedents or Ed Parker) and use his principles, concepts, and theories in ANY FORM (which includes changing the technique names or even re-arranging them [EP's equation formula]), could be {IMHPO}, considered Senior Masters of the Art, and if they are the head of an organization that they founded, developed, or created, could even go as far as "Grand Master of that Organization" but to be the "SENIOR" Grand Master again {In My Humble Personal Opinion} should be used only by and for the Originator of our Wonderful System....... Edmund K. Parker Sr. period.

Any of these other supposed "GrandMasters" have not developed, created or evolved anything "NEW" [yes they have added onto, rearranged, expanded upon already set EP Principles, Concepts, and theories and so on......], but I have not seen "ANY NEW" developments such as or like:
* Universal Pattern
* Web of Knowledge
* Main Base of Principles
* New Curriculum Development {I don't
mean new arrangements}
* Analytical Study of Motion ideals
* Outer Rim Concept
* Dimensional Stages of Action
* Promotional Program for Ranking
* New Historical worthy developments
that would universally effect the Art
as a whole.
* Code of Ethics, Sayings, Pledges,
Creeds to set ideals
* Freestyle "Innovations"
* New Unique Architectural System
Designs
* and so on and so on.

Ed Parker was a Pioneer and deserves the proper recognition and title for what he gave all of us to continue to utilize and build upon. Many insist on Supreme Bogus Rankings with little or negligible support technically or as a community under the 2 Red Bars they so proudly wear. This is "Demanded Respect" of which many resist. True examples of Legends in their own minds. Hecks, I know of an Individual that last year was a 7th Degree and now claims a 10th Degree. WoW!

I would be embarrassed if a 5th or 6th Degree would have a Kenpo Bowl (Similar to the one time College Bowl or Knowledge Bowl TV Game Show), then the Kenpo Community would see what they really know or don't know.

But this is just my opinion, I could be wrong........
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by RCastillo
So, that's why you hit me in the throat, broke my arm, generally said my Kenpo bites, took my self esteem, ran it into the ground..........

I'm too choked up to say more.................

No........... tell the truth!!

It was because YOU submitted a forged Application!!!!

 

[Michael Billings]

... and I know one who went from 6th to 10th after starting his own Association. Hmmmm....????

One of the things you can definitly say neither Bryan Hawkins (UKS) or our own Dennis Conatser (IKKO), did not do. You can organize, manage, and run an Association without self-promotion. I admire both of these men, both GREAT Kenpoist, for NOT promoting themselves and having the integrity to continue to "hold the line" until promoted by their Seniors.

Bravo & Kudos (gee and me not even in either of their organizations and getting no rank or kickback whatsoever for this free advertising)

Respectfully,
-Michael

 

[Mark L]

Goldendragon7,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I do agree with much of what you expressed. The situation I described, particularly my "No, I won't" reaction was an internal one. I was there to learn, not to quarrel about who's called what.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
A very interesting topic.... but one that will not have a universal ending.

The old saying.... "When In Rome...." is the issue. How we are raised and what we are accustomed to is what we feel comfortable with. However, the age of "question authority" is here (which is fine if done in a respectful manner). Respect is not going to someone's house and being asked to remove you shoes at the front door and refusing to do so.

I guess that's part of the issue, he came to our house at our invitation and expense and changed, albeit temporarily, the manner in which we address the instructor.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I realize that in some instances it may go against your personal religious beleifs or other believs well in this case if is not possible to comply, then you should not mingle or participate in the activity or setting unless you comply with the rules of the area.

Agreed. However, there's ample opportunity to engage with the instructor without formally addressing him. That's how I handled it. I'm quite sure there wasn't a hint of disrespect in anything I did.

Originally posted by Goldendragon7 How would it be if we took this attitude to driving in Europe.... Hell I find it uncomfortable to drive on the right side of the road!

or ..... I don't feel like calling the judge at a trial "your honor".

or.... I don't feel like addressing the head of a country as customarily done.. I'd say..... Hi ya George jr....

I think you get the point. We do have the right in our own organizations, camps, or seminars or within our personal boundaries to enforce our Customs....

Please don't tell me you want to take that right away!

:asian:

I don't.

From Miriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: 1mas·ter
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at MUCH
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal
2 a : one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR b : one that conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR <in this young, obscure challenger the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : HUSBAND (2) : the male head of a household

I think my issue is that I default to definition 2 instead of 1, I'll work on it.

:asian:

 

[Iron Dog]

Well said golden dragon! I didn't have the personal relationship with Mr. Parker as you did and never took into consideration his production of a great art.
It's very, very nice to have reasoned and informative discussions, thank you all.
I have learned a lot from these posts...
Patrick

 

[rmcrobertson]

Y'all wanta remember Hegel on the master/slave relationship.

And, bien sur, recollect that whenever you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

I still say that "teacher," is a better title than, "master."

Oh, Howard....

 

[howardr]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Y'all wanta remember Hegel on the master/slave relationship.

And, bien sur, recollect that whenever you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

I still say that "teacher," is a better title than, "master."

Oh, Howard....

“Mastery. We have reached mastery when we neither mistake nor hesitate in the achievement.”

Nietzsche