How much retaliation is legal when in a street fight?

[Ravensign]

Ok, so you are jumped.

What, legally can you do to defend yourself?

Can you knock them out? Break their bones? Stab them with a knife? I am pretty sure my Kali Guru could disarm a knife weilding amateur, and use thier own knife to slice them to 1000 pieces.

Is it different if someone comes in your house? If somone comes into my house and I have a xth Dan belt in some art, they are damn well gonna recieve some punative work on top of sheer defense. Is this legal?

How much is legal? Anyone know how this is determined?

(edit: spelling)

 

[Dronak]

I don't know. I suppose the only way to really be sure is to read up on the laws for your state, county, city, whatever's appropriate. You might want to take a look at the thread in this forum about fighting drunk people. Some posts in there touch upon this topic, too. I believe that I've heard about this sort of "reasonable man/woman" standard thing. I could be wrong, I'm going by memory and speculating from there. This is in no way a definitive answer. I think the idea with that standard is that if you do what the law deems a reasonable, average person would do, there's really no problem. If you go beyond that, then there's a problem and you have to start justifying everything you did beyond what that hypothetical reasonable standard person would have done. I think that if you have good justification for your actions and probably witnesses to testify on your behalf if necessary, you'll be OK in the end. The process may not be pretty, but I suspect it will end OK for you. As for protecting your home, interestingly enough in that other thread someone said their state mandates that the owners leave the house if a burglar or someone comes in so as not to harm the criminal -- reason being material objects are replaceable, but not the criminal's life or limbs or whatever if serious physical damage is done to him/her. I always thought that if someone intruded on your property, you were within your rights to defend it from the invader/criminal. Apparently not in all states. Basically I guess I'm saying the only way to know for sure what's legal is to check the law books and find out. Not a tremedous help, huh?

 

[LanceWildcat1]

Ok, so you are jumped.

What, legally can you do to defend yourself?

The laws in most jurisdictions are somewhat vague about this. The 'rule of thumb' as the law is written, in most places, is: You only only allowed to use that force which necessary to stop the threat. What this means is that if you are confronted by a dull table knife, you might be in trouble if you respond by killing the person. However, if that person comes at you with a butcher knife in a bar room after yelling-so all can hear-"I'm going to kill you!", you can probably get away with knocking the stuffing out of him! What the law really seems to have a problem with is those fights where one person clearly has the advantage and the other cannot continue fighting, but the first person continues beating the second, or causing additional injury. Most judges/juries take these cases on a case/situation by case/situation, when deciding if excessive force was used. I don't know if this helps or not. The law seems to be deliberately vague on self defense cases, because of the circumstances surrounding each case.

 

[SolidTiger]

How much force that is needed is how much force you should use...

If someone attack you, you have the right to defend yourself but you can't use unnecessary force.

Thank you

SolidTiger

"If someone hit you with a rock, don't shoot them with a gun"

 

[karatekid1975]

I agree. Only use the force to match the attacker's force.

I think if you own a gun, and someone breaks into your house, you have the legal right to use it (if the gun is registered that is). In the US that is. I could be wrong, though.

I think using MA is the same if they break into your home.

 

[Jay Bell]

I think if you own a gun, and someone breaks into your house, you have the legal right to use it (if the gun is registered that is). In the US that is. I could be wrong, though.

As a few have said, it's dependant on the state you live. Thinking in such a way without being sure could end up with you having a murder charge..

 

[LanceWildcat1]

Jay Bell:

As a few have said, it's dependant on the state you live. Thinking in such a way without being sure could end up with you having a murder charge..

All states have laws such that if you are defending yourself or your property, and the assailant has a weapon, you are justified in using deadly force. If my home were broken into and my family threatened, I'd take whatever measures I deemed necessary at the time and worry about the law later. My family and my own well being comes first, if attacked. I was in this situation years ago, before I married and had a family. My trailer was broken into at night by, what was later to be discovered, an illegal alien who thought my trailer was a drug house a block down the street. I was watching t.v. and he broke in by kicking the door down. I grabbed my pistol from the cabinet and stood up. He pulled a knife and demanded drugs. I told him I had none, and lunged at me. I shot him in the chest, and he went down. I called the police and waited for them. When they got there, I told them what had happened, and they took him to the hospital, where he later recovered, and was deported. The policemen that responded took my gun for evidence, but returned it to me about a week later. I was never charged with anything.

 

[Aikikitty]

Wow LanceWildcat1!!!! Scary situation! I'm glad you came out safely and the "bad guy" wasn't seriously hurt either. I'm happy you weren't charged with anything for simply defending yourself. :shotgun: It's a shame it had to happen at all.

Robyn :ninja: :duel:

 

[Jay Bell]

All states have laws such that if you are defending yourself or your property, and the assailant has a weapon, you are justified in using deadly force.

This is not true and stating such on a public board will give people empty knowledge.

Though I do agree, protect family, self and property first...worry about laws later. Telling *anyone* that deadly force is applicable because an assailant has a weapon in hand is spreading nothing but rumor. Clarification needs to be made. If the weapon is being used against you or your family, then yes...deadly force is allowed. If a man standing in my living room with knife in hand is heading for the front door, then no...it isn't. (In Arizona...which is still a state based on 'posse law')

Understand also that even if you are attacked with a weapon and deadly force is used, you may be on the business end of a trial regardless. A close friend of mine during a street fight outside of a club broke an attacker's elbow, who attacked him with a knife. Innocent as he was found, he still was arrested and had a trial.

As stated above, check with your local and state authorities on 'justification of force' laws. *Do not* take the words of people on a discussion board as fact. It gives you a false sense of freedom in said situations and you could end up in very hot water.
(Example - "Registering hands/self as weapons" comes to mind. How many times has *that* joke been discussed and believed?)

The rule of thumb is to use just enough force to nullify the situation. If you exceed that, you're asking for trouble. Also keep in mind, that as a martial artist, defending yourself isn't the same as another joe-schmoe. A jury is a group of your peers....peers that can often believe that Stephen Segal really *can* walk into a mansion with a Glock and kill everyone unscathed.

 

[TLH3rdDan]

well i dont know about the rest of the states and contries but here in good ole tennessee... there are several different ways this can go... first you are allowed to use as much force as necessary to nullify the situation... in other words if the guy throws a punch you dont have the right to shoot him but you do have the right to punch back... how ever once that person hits the ground or can no longer defend their selves you are supposed to stop if you continue then you are screwed because it becomes assualt and battery and you go to jail with him... and again if someone does pull a weapon on you and you do have a permit to carry a firearm you are allowed to use it as long as you feel your life or the life of a third party may be in danger... also here if you get in say a fist fight and you break the guys arm or leg or something like that he can then turn around and press charges against you for serious bodily injury which also falls under the use of deadly force... its really really complex and tricky its best to avoid any situation that could result in a fight... but if it cant be avoided use as little force as necesary to get out of the situation... damn laws lol... but anyway thats the basic short verison of how it works here.... and yes i know what im talking about because i have a carry permit im also a state licesened(spelling sucks) armed guard and have had to spend many many many hours studing my states laws regarding the use of force....

are any of you familiar with the use of force continuem not sure on the spelling of that... this it the basic guide that most police departments and security officers use...

level one verbal commands... try to command the person to stop or stay back or what ever using only your voice

level two unarmed physical restraint... using as little force as possible subdue the subject

level three secondary tool (weapon this mainly applies only to law enforcement)... if physical force is not enough or the threat is greater than a physical confrontation use secondary measures such as pepper spray or baton

level four deadly force... used as last resort in extreme situations such as being fired upon or held at gun or knife point

of course you would start at which ever level is approriate for the situation... in other words if your being shot at or a knife being swung at you... dont try talking to the guy lol

 

[TLH3rdDan]

lol ohhh one more thing to consider that i always say is... id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

 

[LanceWildcat1]

If your and/or your family are confronted with someone with the means to use deadly force, there isn't a jury in this country that would convict you for using deadly force in protection of your life and the lives of your loved ones.:asian:

 

[LanceWildcat1]

To put it another way, if me, my wife, or my son are threatened with imminent harm with a deadly weapon (gun), and I get the chance, the perp is dead meat. There are not to many ways to interpret being threatened with a gun, other than that the wielder of that gun is prepared to use it. Since he is, whatever force I use to subdue/stop him is what I will use. If I get in hot water with the law, so be it. My family's safety comes first. If they are safe, and I do some time, fine. The idea of using deadly force to protect life and limb is primary. The person who threaten's me or mine with death has made his decision, and had better be prepared to live by that decision.

 

[Kirk]

Also, when stuck in a situation where an armed attacker kicks
in your door ... dead men tell no tales. There's a lot of stories
told of being sued in a civil court, while protecting your own life,
and losing! Pathetic, but true. I myself couldn't afford a high
priced attorney to protect me against civil litigation. A LOT of
high priced attornies would take a case representing the attacker,
just to get some bucks (not ALL, but a lot, IMHO).

Aside from life or death, but attacked in the street. If there's no
witnesses, regardless in how just I was, and how little force I
used ... I'm outta there. Let the attacker call the cops, I'll be at
home sippin' iced tea by then.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Always check the local laws.


Many good posts, and I agree with some, those dealing with defending yourself. I disagree with the blank assumptions.

Now, In Michigan, you are allowed to "reasonable" (* the officer responding gets to decide if it was reasonable, and later the DA can decide differently *), response in force. Now to add to the comment from a previous post about not following the attacked to the ground. Once they hit the ground they are unable to defend themselves. (* This is from the point of law not from my view point *) Now let's say I Joe BAD@$$ and I start a fight and get a couple of quick punches and maybe a kick in. Then I yell, 'I quit' or 'I Stop' and if you counter punch me now you become the aggressor, and can/will be charged with assault and battery also.

For example, in Auckland New Zealand, if you Jay Walk / Cross the street with out going with the light , and you have the smallest Swiss Army knife in your pocket, this turns the local misdemeanor into a felony.

Therefore, look into your local laws.

Train well, defend yourselves and enjoy life

Rich

 

[donald]

In Ohio you must stop when the attacker's been difused. For instance if he/she is now on the ground in a defenseless position. To continue your defensive assault would be considered excessive. I was once sued by a bar owner who attacked my friend with a black jack. I hit him with a front kick to get him off my friend, and a follow up till he went down, giving up his weapon. No stomping or anything, but because I was a martial artist(not a blk. blt.) in training. They said I was a trained fighter. Thankfully the guy had a history of attacking people he felt were out of line, and his suit did'nt stand up. It could have gone badly if I would have gone a little further in my defense. One thing which helped was that I told him LOUDLY to stop or I would defend my friend, and myself as a martial artist. The attorneys said that showed that I was'nt trying take advantage of my skills to bully(as he claimed) anyone. I guess the best thing to do would be to go until you no longer feel threatened. Then use self control to stop, and walk away...

Salute,
Donald :shrug:

 

[LanceWildcat1]

donald:

One thing which helped was that I told him LOUDLY to stop or I would defend my friend, and myself as a martial artist.

That act of warning him, when brought up in court, told that judge/jury that he knew that you were trained and why you acted in a defensive mode, rather than an offensive mode. I am trying to find cases in law where a person trained in the martial arts has had to defend himself using his skills and had the judge/jury rule against him. I have yet to find a case, either on the street or in the home, wherein the martial artist acted in self defense and was convicted, AS LONG AS HE STOPPED WHEN THE PERPETRATOR WAS INCAPACITATED TO THE POINT THAT THEY COULDN'T CONTINUE THE ATTACK.

 

[arnisador]

Wasn't Hee Il Cho sued for kickinmg someone who threatened him at his studio? This was many years ago. If I recall, he had to pay five figures in medical damages.

 

[LanceWildcat1]

arnisador:

Wasn't Hee Il Cho sued for kickinmg someone who threatened him at his studio? This was many years ago. If I recall, he had to pay five figures in medical damages.

Without knowing the circumstances, it would be hard to tell what happened and who was to blame in that situation.

 

[arnisador]

I believe that the details were well-publicized at the time--perhaps I will search the Black Belt Mag. archives for them later.