How important is contact sparring in MA?

[Flying Crane]

I believe that if what you said earlier was true, evidence of it should be fairly easy to find.

why? do you believe everything in life is documented for your review? hint: it isn't.

I have a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained briefly in Tang Soo Do. I've also seen how WC exponents fight on numerous occasions.

It's fair to say that I know quite a bit about 3/4 the traditional styles you listed. None of them fight like that Armenian boxer.

Just saying.

and somehow you missed all the lessons.

 

[jks9199]

A lot of those pointers also exist in SMA, TMA, and MMAs. My instructor constantly discusses situational awareness, avoiding fights when necessary, and the appropriate use of force in an encounter.

I find it bizarre that some believe that only RBSD systems teach stuff like that.

There's discussion -- and there's practice.

A few years back, my wife took a college class in "self-defense." It was just combat hapkido packaged for a semester long PE department class. The whole section on "awareness" and "de-escalation" was handouts. Other martial arts classes leave it to the club rules or mottos, with maybe a mention here and there. Class time is devoted to exercises, drills, forms/kata, and maybe sparring. They'll maybe do a special event self-defense class, or practice some one-step style self defense moves.

I've posted elsewhere about scenario training. It's HARD WORK. It takes a lot of preparation and planning. And you have to know what you're doing; you have to start from the right assumptions as a beginning. You have to have a goal or purpose, and make sure that you don't accidentally reinforce a bad or undesired response when adrenalized, because it's incredibly hard to undo that.

Look, sparring is fun. Sparring has a place as ONE means of testing your techniques under one form of pressure. Contact is also important; you have to be hit in training or you'll freeze when you're hit in reality, whether you're talking a tournament or a violent encounter in the real world. (You may freeze anyway... but that's another discussion.) But if you do too much hard contact in training -- you won't be able to do anything in the real world. Given what we're learning about concussions -- do you really think people should be knocked out regularly? That's just one example...

 

[jks9199]

And yet the weight of evidence shows sports fighters being successful in real world altercations. At some point you have to accept the evidence even when it disagrees with your internal logic.

I know a few military and law enforcement guys who do spar. Including law enforcement trainers.

What evidence? I've seen plenty of cases where sport fighters got mugged, got their butts handed to them in a street encounter... Anectdotes only prove so much... YouTube proves less.

I don't think anybody has said that sparring has no place -- but sport preparation isn't the same as preparing for violent encounters, either.

 

[Flying Crane]

What's a traditional martial art, again? I'm not sure you or anyone else here can even agree on that. So suggesting anyone here does or does not know about it is not very helpful or even supportable.

Mma can be quantified, and so one can be knowledgable. Tma is undefined and not quantified.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fair enough. So maybe Hanzou understands a bit about MMA competition and how those interested in that kind of thing approach their training. Or not. I'm not the judge of that.

but about much of the other things he likes to proclaim about, he doesn't know much.

 

[Flying Crane]

I've got to ask Hanzou: what's your point? Seriously. Seems to me that your threads just devolve into you telling everyone that if they don't do it your way, if they don't agree with you, then they're wrong and there's no other way to it.

What do you think is going to happen? Do you think everyone reading this is going to suddenly see the "error" of their ways and turn to you for guidance? It just seems like in every thread you start, you've clearly made up your mind from the very beginning about everything. So what's there to discuss with you? You aren't really here to discuss anything. You're here to wallow in your own "wisdom" or something, I dunno. It's just weird, the direction your threads seem to go.

For my own part, I've always acknowledged that sport combat training can probably often translate well on the streets. I personally don't feel threatened by recognizing that fact. It doesn't make me feel any less adequate in my own training. I don't really care what others are doing. My training makes sense to me, whether it has your approval or not. I guess that's why I'm in no hurry to hunt up any Youtube documentation or anything like that, for you. I just don't care about your approval, or lack thereof.

Why is it that you can't see any value in anything BUT sports competition? Seriously, in the end I don't even care what you think, it really boggles the mind that your threads last as long as they do. I'm constantly amazed at the fact that anyone is willing to engage in your threads at all. Just let you play by yourself in your own sandbox. Whatever. Think what you want, I don't have much desire to convince you. I and others have given you a chance at an education. But if you feel you already have all the answers, well good luck to ya. You can choose ignorance, that's a valid choice too.

 

[Hanzou]

why? do you believe everything in life is documented for your review? hint: it isn't.

I believe that if something exists, there should be more than anecdotal evidence available.

and somehow you missed all the lessons.

Okay.....

 

[Hanzou]

What evidence? I've seen plenty of cases where sport fighters got mugged, got their butts handed to them in a street encounter... Anectdotes only prove so much... YouTube proves less.

I don't think anybody has said that sparring has no place -- but sport preparation isn't the same as preparing for violent encounters, either.

There's been evidence posted in this very thread. No one is saying that sport fighters are unbeatable. The argument is that a sport fighter can handle themselves just fine in a violent encounter.

BTW, how exactly is someone preparing for a violent encounter?

You mean like this;

Or this;

Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Let's tackle this another way, and this is directed specifically to Drop Bear and Hanzou.

When you spar...

1) Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
2) Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
3) Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
4) Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
5) Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
6) Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
7) Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
8) Do you spar only on a dry surface?
9) Do you spar only indoors?
10) Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
11) Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack
12) Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

I'd like to hear your responses. Please be specific as to each of these point whether or not their are utilized. Thank you

I'm neither of those but I would like to respond anyway (I changed the bullets to numbers to make it easier to answer).

1) Yes, 2 on one sparring is reasonably common, I took class last night and got the entire class to spar anyone at anytime, if someone gets tapped on the back they fall out until only one remains.
2) Yes, sometimes we will spar with one student having a rubber knife or batton form the outset.
3) Not specifically.
4) No but that aspect is covered separately.
5) No but that aspect is covered separately.
6) The lighting is more of a safety issue but we have sparred outside when it is starting to get dark. Open space usually but sometimes we will restrict the sparring area and in the big classes students have to be weary of those around them. We also have toe to toe hand sparring where the front foot of both students will remain in close proximity throughout. Also we sometimes have one student against a wall or sitting in a chair and defend only while their partner will attack, sometimes with a batton.
7) There is no specific rule set but it is usually restrict it to mainly striking.
8) More of a safety issue but we have sparred on slippery floors, in those cases students are advised to maintain their stances, keep their feet flat and not to kick high or at all.
9) No but that is the most common way. We occasionally spar outside on a grassed area and on the sand/in the water during beach training.
10) Stairs/no (safety issue plus hard to fit 20 students in a stairwell), elevator no (people look at you funny when you spar in an elevator), car no (It would be hard to find someone to volunteer the use of their car), between two parked cars no (might damage the cars), slippery surface that slopes, slippery, yes, sloping, yes, some of the grassed ares were sloped somewhat.
11) We generally spar until the instructor says to stop.
12) Yes, opponent may be standing behind you, you may be restricted to using only one arm, sparring may commence from a sitting/situp/pushup position, one student might be on the floor or sitting in a chair.

Sparring can be as restricted or as varied as any other training exercise.

 

[drop bear]

What evidence? I've seen plenty of cases where sport fighters got mugged, got their butts handed to them in a street encounter... Anectdotes only prove so much... YouTube proves less.

I don't think anybody has said that sparring has no place -- but sport preparation isn't the same as preparing for violent encounters, either.

Not many of my examples have been anecdotal. I haven't fought someone in weeks to be honest. But if you see YouTube clips of actual fights combined with news articles of sports fighters performing real world self defence combined with anecdotal evidence and demonstrated ability in training against a resisted person.


And at some point it has to weigh against the stories that we have all been told.

 

[drop bear]

A few posted YT videos does not constitute a weight of evidence. You are being disingenuous. The weight of evidence demonstrates that professional fighters and HL professionals train quite differently. And as pointed out in the selectively chosen YT videos are a plethora of inadequacies and the fact that if only ONE of the factors changed, the outcome would be different. Additionally, lets be honest in our evaluation and admit that there are many, clear examples of professional 'fighters' getting their arses handed to them and/or injuring themselves needlessly because they reverted to their sport training. In some cases, unfortunately, losing their lives.




Perhaps on their own, or at most as an add on to authorized training. Although I will concede that some agencies still exist who's training tactics are sub-par. As I mentioned, years ago our regional training center offered Gracie JJ. When it was discovered the training was not applicable, and in fact detrimental to our needs it was dropped. SPEAR, PCR and other reality based systems have been offered for decades and are still in demand. But as far as authorized training, particularly academy training, no, sparring is not done. Scenario based training is conducted to include the FATS machine for firearms, shoot houses, and hands on scenarios.



You don't know who to believe because you haven't done the necessary research. I've been training since 1975. I've been teaching martial arts since 1986. I've been in L.E. since 1990. I've been teaching academies, EOT and in-service since 1997 including advanced instructor-only or train-the-trainer certifications. We don't spar in the conventional sense of the term. We don't spar because sparring is an inferior training methodology for our needs, to include self defense for the average citizen. As I stated, sparring is superior for the sporting venue. It is inferior for the self defense venue. Why? Simply because scenario based training includes the elements of sparring that are applicable but then expand them to a far more realistic drill. To put it into numerical terms, and just picking numbers for the sake of an illustration, sparring (for self defense) has +5 positives and -4 negatives whereas scenario based training contains the +5 positives presented in sparring and adds another +5 positives to include the other necessary elements with none of the negatives.

In these kinds of conversations it seems that the 'sport guys' get their noses out of joint. I don't know why? It isn't an us vs. them conversation, at least not on my part. Only that the methodologies, once again, differ for a reason.

Ok you can't watch a guy flog three guys in a street fight and turn around with some sort of armchair quarterback response. About how his legs were too far apart or something. That is your internal logic conflicting with the weight of evidence. If you need to rely on what might have happened that is being disingenuous.

I understand that self defence does not need the same complexity as sports fighting. The fights don't go as long. The other guy hasn't trained up to fight you, you can de escalate use environment numbers weapons and so on. That for your average police officer minimal training is sufficient.

And to be honest most people have other things to do.

My suggestion is to take advantage of elements from other training methods should a person wish to do so. So sparring plus combat scenarios is going to add more to your training knowledge than combat scenarios or sparring alone.

The more well rounded you are the better you will be able to deal with a situation. Contact sparring is an element of that well rounded training.

 

[drop bear]

Let's tackle this another way, and this is directed specifically to Drop Bear and Hanzou.

When you spar...

• Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
• Yes.
• Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
• Yes
• Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
• Yes
• Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
• Yes but quitting before a round is frowned upon.
• Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
• Yes but quitting during a round is frowned upon.
• Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
• No my coach is a stingy bugger and turned the lights of on us.
• Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
• Sort of there has been times we go off reservation a bit. There is a generally accepted no ninja crap. But I have sparred the eye gouge merchants.
• Do you spar only on a dry surface?
• No mats get slippery as heck.
• Do you spar only indoors?
• No sometimes we go to the beach
• Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
• No we spar contact.
• Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
• No I don't usually flog out a guy I am dominating.
• Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?
• Yes that is pretty standard.

I'd like to hear your responses. Please be specific as to each of these point whether or not their are utilized. Thank you

There are reasons why we don't in some of those cases.

We have to acomidate that the other guy is fighting back

That the other guy can actually fight.

That we are trying to limit injuries in a very injury prone environment.

I have fought guys in nearly all those environments except for the elevator.

Interesting thing about the two on one. It generally ends in seconds considering that the guys who generally train mma have a bit of nasty in them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Let's tackle this another way, and this is directed specifically to Drop Bear and Hanzou.
When you spar...

1)Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
2)Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
3)Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
4)Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
5)Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
6)Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
7)Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
8)Do you spar only on a dry surface?
9)Do you spar only indoors?
10)Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
11)Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
12)Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?
I'd like to hear your responses. Please be specific as to each of these point whether or not their are utilized. Thank you

I'll toss my responses in as well.

1) Sometimes, although not as often as I would like.
2) Yes, but not as often as I would like - I've been neglecting my weapons work lately
3) Yes, but not as often as I would like - I've been neglecting my weapons work lately
4) No. That option is better addressed in scenario training.
5) No to evading prior (once again, that's better addressed in scenario training), but sometimes I set a "victory condition" for one partner to escape the area.
6) No, I've sparred both in confined spaces and in dim light.
7) We do try to make sure the rules are agreed on beforehand, but it's not uncommon to have asymmetric rules - where the participants have different goals and allowable techniques
8) No, I've frequently sparred on wet, slippery surfaces. (this can be both frustrating and amusing)
9) No, I've sparred outside many, many times.
10) a) No to stairs - I've trained on stairs but not done full out sparring for the same reason I haven't done full out open ended scenario training on stairs - if you throw your partner down the stairs someone is likely to crack their skull
b) Not an actual elevator (don't have one available for the purpose), but certainly spaces equivalent to an elevator
c) Never sparred in a car, but it sounds like fun. Hmmm ...I wonder who I can get to try that with me. Anyone in my area want to give it a shot?
d) Not specifically between two cars, but I have sparred outside with obstacles around.
e) Yes. (Tip - wear clothes that you don't mind getting grass stains on.)
11) Sometimes. Depends on what the focus of the session is.
12) All the time. This is a very standard training method.

I'll be honest, some of the options you bring up I don't do nearly as often as I would like. I train and teach at someone else's gym where the majority of the students are training for competition or for a hobby. If I was running my own gym, we'd be doing a lot more sparring in different environments, with weapons, and with multiple opponents.

It does seem like you've got the idea that sparring has to operate within certain confines because that's the way you've seen it at the typical school. It's as if you visited a bunch of judo/karate/TKD schools and noticed that they always seem to spar barefoot while wearing a special uniform and then declared that "sparring is inefficient training for the street because you don't wear shoes like you would in real life."

 

[drop bear]

I'll toss my responses in as well.

1) Sometimes, although not as often as I would like.
2) Yes, but not as often as I would like - I've been neglecting my weapons work lately
3) Yes, but not as often as I would like - I've been neglecting my weapons work lately
4) No. That option is better addressed in scenario training.
5) No to evading prior (once again, that's better addressed in scenario training), but sometimes I set a "victory condition" for one partner to escape the area.
6) No, I've sparred both in confined spaces and in dim light.
7) We do try to make sure the rules are agreed on beforehand, but it's not uncommon to have asymmetric rules - where the participants have different goals and allowable techniques
8) No, I've frequently sparred on wet, slippery surfaces. (this can be both frustrating and amusing)
9) No, I've sparred outside many, many times.
10) a) No to stairs - I've trained on stairs but not done full out sparring for the same reason I haven't done full out open ended scenario training on stairs - if you throw your partner down the stairs someone is likely to crack their skull
b) Not an actual elevator (don't have one available for the purpose), but certainly spaces equivalent to an elevator
c) Never sparred in a car, but it sounds like fun. Hmmm ...I wonder who I can get to try that with me. Anyone in my area want to give it a shot?
d) Not specifically between two cars, but I have sparred outside with obstacles around.
e) Yes. (Tip - wear clothes that you don't mind getting grass stains on.)
11) Sometimes. Depends on what the focus of the session is.
12) All the time. This is a very standard training method.

I'll be honest, some of the options you bring up I don't do nearly as often as I would like. I train and teach at someone else's gym where the majority of the students are training for competition or for a hobby. If I was running my own gym, we'd be doing a lot more sparring in different environments, with weapons, and with multiple opponents.

It does seem like you've got the idea that sparring has to operate within certain confines because that's the way you've seen it at the typical school. It's as if you visited a bunch of judo/karate/TKD schools and noticed that they always seem to spar barefoot while wearing a special uniform and then declared that "sparring is inefficient training for the street because you don't wear shoes like you would in real life."

Although it would be great to test out the environment before you fight a guy on it. Most people don't have that luxury. Slippery surface is a big one for that. It takes a lot of calm reasoning to be fighting a guy and looking for slip hazards at the same time.

I have actually had a guy take his shoes off to fight me once. And then threw crescent kicks in my general direction. like a real martial artist.

It was pretty funny.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Although it would be great to test out the environment before you fight a guy on it. Most people don't have that luxury. Slippery surface is a big one for that. It takes a lot of calm reasoning to be fighting a guy and looking for slip hazards at the same time.

I have actually had a guy take his shoes off to fight me once. And then threw crescent kicks in my general direction. like a real martial artist.

It was pretty funny.

Maybe I should have specified that I also have sparred with shoes on.

I don't think it's all that necessary to have extensive practice sparring in every environment that you might ever encounter in a fight. I do think it's a good idea to have at least some experience sparring in a variety of environments just so you get used being aware of your surroundings and adjusting to them as necessary.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe I should have specified that I also have sparred with shoes on.

I don't think it's all that necessary to have extensive practice sparring in every environment that you might ever encounter in a fight. I do think it's a good idea to have at least some experience sparring in a variety of environments just so you get used being aware of your surroundings and adjusting to them as necessary.

You should have a set of gym shoes for when you break a toe or something.


Look given the opportunity is would give this a go for sure.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKGBXWphXk

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Look given the opportunity is would give this a go for sure.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKGBXWphXk

A couple of guys from my gym competed in that recently!

Unfortunately, when they got to the venue they found that they didn't have a matchup in their weight class, so they ended up fighting up a weight class and ended up losing the decision. They said it was a lot of fun, though.

Funny story - I saw the guys practicing for the event (two on two, on and around a raised platform) and I thought to myself "I wonder how long it will be before someone gets mixed up and starts swinging at their own teammate?" Sure enough, ten minutes later I hear "What are you doing?!! I'm on your side!" "Sorry man, I got confused." :boing2:

 

[jezr74]

I have actually had a guy take his shoes off to fight me once. And then threw crescent kicks in my general direction. like a real martial artist.

It was pretty funny.

Admittedly in my scrapping days when I was young the first thing I did was take my top off, my mates thought I was a show off (not that I was muscular or anything), but it was a purely budgetary thing. Depending on the person I was in fight with, if they were not skilled I'd generally grab their top pull it over their head and send them on their way. But any tangle with a bit of vigour ended up with torn T-shirts or blood, grass, dirt stains. I always got to walk away looking clean.

 

[drop bear]

Admittedly in my scrapping days when I was young the first thing I did was take my top off, my mates thought I was a show off (not that I was muscular or anything), but it was a purely budgetary thing. Depending on the person I was in fight with, if they were not skilled I'd generally grab their top pull it over their head and send them on their way. But any tangle with a bit of vigour ended up with torn T-shirts or blood, grass, dirt stains. I always got to walk away looking clean.

I buy my t shirts from best and less. I have allways wanted some party boy stripper pants though make a real statement in a fight.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctnH_LvhKgE

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Ok you can't watch a guy flog three guys in a street fight and turn around with some sort of armchair quarterback response.

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You should expect, welcome and encourage a detailed critique of the videos you offer from those using critical thinking skills. If you post a YT video of something and expect people to only gush and oh and ah about it, then you're on the wrong forum. Particularly if you're in a thread that discusses an area that you're not an expert in at this time. That's how you learn and grow and I would hope you want to do both.

I and others have critiques many/all of the videos you've posted, from the perspective of the OP of whatever thread they were in. Again, you should welcome that. In several of these videos, although it turned out alright for the good guy/gal, they still were very poor examples of self defense. That isn't flaming you, that's trying to educate you as to why we said what we said. Don't resist it, learn from it. So don't take it as against you personally. In many of these videos, if just one factor was changed the outcome would have changed. Now that can be true of any altercation regardless of the training, but the point of sound SD training is to eliminate, mitigate or change these factors as much as possible to the situation.

I understand that self defence does not need the same complexity as sports fighting. The fights don't go as long.

That is correct. SD needs to be simple i.e. based on gross motor skills. This means they are more viable under duress/stress and just as importantly, they are retained in long term memory. A SD 'fight' should be over in seconds. Statistically speaking, serious altercations last seven seconds with injury occurring in the first 3 seconds.

The other guy hasn't trained up to fight you...

I'll disagree with you here to an extent. Inmates train each other in a variety of 'arts'. Anything and everything from MMA to traditional to street fighting with weapons. In complete seriousness, and no joking around, I wish every martial artists (be they sport or SD) could see a video compilation of how and what these people train in and the brutality of their methodology. It would be a reality check for many. Their aim is to inflict as much damage as humanly possible (with or without weapons) in the shortest amount of time.

My suggestion is to take advantage of elements from other training methods should a person wish to do so.

Good advice.

So sparring plus combat scenarios is going to add more to your training knowledge than combat scenarios or sparring alone.

I'll insert the caveat that scenario based training, when done correctly, uses all the elements of sparring AND the other necessary elements for sound SD. It is sparring on steroids!

 

[drop bear]

You're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You should expect, welcome and encourage a detailed critique of the videos you offer from those using critical thinking skills. If you post a YT video of something and expect people to only gush and oh and ah about it, then you're on the wrong forum. Particularly if you're in a thread that discusses an area that you're not an expert in at this time. That's how you learn and grow and I would hope you want to do both.

I and others have critiques many/all of the videos you've posted, from the perspective of the OP of whatever thread they were in. Again, you should welcome that. In several of these videos, although it turned out alright for the good guy/gal, they still were very poor examples of self defense. That isn't flaming you, that's trying to educate you as to why we said what we said. Don't resist it, learn from it. So don't take it as against you personally. In many of these videos, if just one factor was changed the outcome would have changed. Now that can be true of any altercation regardless of the training, but the point of sound SD training is to eliminate, mitigate or change these factors as much as possible to the situation.



That is correct. SD needs to be simple i.e. based on gross motor skills. This means they are more viable under duress/stress and just as importantly, they are retained in long term memory. A SD 'fight' should be over in seconds. Statistically speaking, serious altercations last seven seconds with injury occurring in the first 3 seconds.



I'll disagree with you here to an extent. Inmates train each other in a variety of 'arts'. Anything and everything from MMA to traditional to street fighting with weapons. In complete seriousness, and no joking around, I wish every martial artists (be they sport or SD) could see a video compilation of how and what these people train in and the brutality of their methodology. It would be a reality check for many. Their aim is to inflict as much damage as humanly possible (with or without weapons) in the shortest amount of time.



Good advice.



I'll insert the caveat that scenario based training, when done correctly, uses all the elements of sparring AND the other necessary elements for sound SD. It is sparring on steroids!

You are not critiquing the videos based on what worked and what did not. You are critiquing the videos on what you would like to have seen happen. You are working backwards. I am not flaming you either. Just letting you know your ideas of what should happen are interfering with your observation of what is happening. Honestly I think you need to be less of an expert and more of a student. But hey if you want to go that way that is fine.

I don't know how you would define simple. Punching is simple. Punching a guy who can defend is complicated. The example of a credible martial art generally should be that a person who has spent years at it is better than a person who has spent months. This is an indication that fighting can be a bit complex.

It does not matter how long a SD fight should be over in. It is over when it is over. I would prefer to train for a ten minute fight and have it be over in ten seconds then the situations be reversed. This rush to finish on some sort of internal clock I don't understand. Is there somewhere you have to be?

I have had experience with criminal street fighters and enforcers as they can come from the same stock as bouncers. And sports fighters over represent there as well.

My issue with scenario training is I have never seen it done as you describe it. Normally where the participants have no real training it is pretty technically deficient and begins to rely too much on good role play from the other guy. It is again done backwards where it is not played out to see what happens it is manufactured to achieve a result.