How Effective Is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?

[kuniggety]

who said average? His claim was bb have weak cores, that seems to include all bodybuilders
as you have the facts, what is the mean average dead lift weight for body builders ?

You mentioned 500 lbs deadlift as some sort of standard of strength. I'm a military guy and I've known lots of body builders and power lifters. I'm a novice power lifter myself. If you don't train something, then it's not going to get strong. A 500 lbs deadlift is an impressive but doable weight for most males with a couple of years training (2-3x body weight). But that's specifically training it. Deadlifts are not a body building lift.

 

[Steve]

yea I agree that strength isn't their goal, but its a byproduct of their search for bigger muscles . To base the entire statement that body builders have weak cores on one guy you knew years ago is pushing the generalisation thing a bit far

Okay, maybe some have a stronger core than you. That's possibl,e I guess.

 

[jobo]

You mentioned 500 lbs deadlift as some sort of standard of strength. I'm a military guy and I've known lots of body builders and power lifters. I'm a novice power lifter myself. If you don't train something, then it's not going to get strong. A 500 lbs deadlift is an impressive but doable weight for most males with a couple of years training (2-3x body weight). But that's specifically training it. Deadlifts are not a body building lift.

well according to my good friends on muscle talk body building web site dead lift are a staple requirement of any body building routeen. They call them the main lifts and comprise deads, bench press, squats and over head presses. Now as they are a known quantity and I've only just met you, I'm going with them

 

[Steve]

You're going to take the word of some random guys on one forum over the word of some random guys in another forum? Sounds reasonable.

 

[jobo]

You're going to take the word of some random guys on one forum over the word of some random guys in another forum? Sounds reasonable.

yea but they post vids of themselves doing 300 kg dead lifts , so it's pretty convincing. And I wouldn't ask them for karate advice

 

[kuniggety]

well according to my good friends on muscle talk body building web site dead lift are a staple requirement of any body building routeen. They call them the main lifts and comprise deads, bench press, squats and over head presses. Now as they are a known quantity and I've only just met you, I'm going with them

Those four lifts are often referred to as strong lifts. They comprise the mainstay of what I use for building strength too. They are not body building lifts. Does that mean body builders can't use them? No, but it's the same as saying "I know some TKD practitioners that know some judo throws and thus judo is part of TKD". No, they're separate disciplines but can be cross-trained.

 

[jobo]

Those four lifts are often referred to as strong lifts. They comprise the mainstay of what I use for building strength too. They are not body building lifts. Does that mean body builders can't use them? No, but it's the same as saying "I know some TKD practitioners that know some judo throws and thus judo is part of TKD". No, they're separate disciplines but can be cross-trained.

well it does seem to be the go to exercise for body builders to develop their legs back and glues . Clearly they also can be used to develop strength, the difference is a bb would use a lighter weight and more reps. In fact strength. Training exercises are more or less the same as bb exercises apart from the weight/ reps used. It's there somewhat false to say dead lifts are primarily a strengh exercise

 

[kuniggety]

well it does seem to be the go to exercise for body builders to develop their legs back and glues . Clearly they also can be used to develop strength, the difference is a bb would use a lighter weight and more reps. In fact strength. Training exercises are more or less the same as bb exercises apart from the weight/ reps used. It's there somewhat false to say dead lifts are primarily a strengh exercise

Reps and weight are not the only difference. BBs make extensive use of muscle isolation exercises. It's how they get those enormous arms, calves, and other muscles which are indirectly worked during strong lifts but not enough to produce the "pop" look that BBs go for. Power lifters don't stand there for an hour doing arm curls. They're perfect for BBs, giving them those guns, but they don't add to the lifting capability of a power lifter. Deadlifts and squats are compound exercises that build core strength and promote testosterone production which further promotes muscle growth.

 

[jobo]

Reps and weight are not the only difference. BBs make extensive use of muscle isolation exercises. It's how they get those enormous arms, calves, and other muscles which are indirectly worked during strong lifts but not enough to produce the "pop" look that BBs go for. Power lifters don't stand there for an hour doing arm curls. They're perfect for BBs, giving them those guns, but they don't add to the lifting capability of a power lifter. Deadlifts and squats are compound exercises that build core strength and promote testosterone production which further promotes muscle growth.

those we call accessory lifts. That doesn't alter the fact that bb make exstensive use of deads. Or that strengh. Builders do bicep curls, just lower reps and more weight.

I pitch my work out at mid point on the rep range. Usual about 8to 10. Unless I'm having another go at getting my biceps' bigger then it 20 all the way.

 

[jobo]

those we call accessory lifts. That doesn't alter the fact that bb make exstensive use of deads. Or that strengh. Builders do bicep curls, just lower reps and more weight.power lifter only do power lifting. Strengh athletes are more than just power lifter

I pitch my work out at mid point on the rep range. Usual about 8to 10. Unless I'm having another go at getting my biceps' bigger then it 20 all the way.

 

[jobo]

Okay, maybe some have a stronger core than you. That's possibl,e I guess.

Okay, maybe some have a stronger core than you. That's possibl,e I guess.

I think we may be talking about slightly different things, under the general heading of body builder.
there are quite a few folks,round here who have big arms, chest shoulders, but not much else. This is because they own a bench a bar and some dumb bells and their ownly I interest is making their pub muscles look impressive. There are those that have big bycepts but an invisible triceps'. This is because they only own the dumb bells. These people are as strong as they look, but only in the places they look strong, When I use the term body builder I'm referring to a) someone who trains the whole body and b) someone who has some idea of what they are doing with training program and diet .

 

[Buka]

Body building is the development of the physique for competitive exhibition.

 

[jobo]

I think we may be talking about slightly different things, under the general heading of body builder.
there are quite a few folks,round here who have big arms, chest shoulders, but not much else. This is because they own a bench a bar and some dumb bells and their ownly I interest is making their pub muscles look impressive. There are those that have big bycepts but an invisible triceps'. This is because they only own the dumb bells. These people are as strong as they look, but only in the places they look strong, When I use the term body builder I'm referring to a) someone who trains the whole body and b) someone who has some idea of what they are doing with training program and diet .

Body building is the development of the physique for competitive exhibition.

well it is certainly that, but there is no law saying you cant be a body builder unless you complete. Alot do it for non competative exhibition, or more honestly a lot have body dismophia and can stop trying to look bigger no matter how big they are. It's the male version of bulimia, particularly when you throw the bulking and cutting eating disorder in

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Interviews with muggers, on how they select their victims, shows that size has nothing to do with it. If you carry yourself confidently career criminals will wait for someone less confident to select as a victim, so whilst the actual muscles will have little bearing, the confidence that comes from having them would mean you would be less likely to be selected as a victim.

I agree. Command presence and how one carries themselves plays a much bigger role than sheer size. Being aware of your surroundings is key. Making eye contact (not to challenge but to let them know you know they're there) and then looking away but NOT down is key. Looking down shows intimidation rather than confidence.

 

[JP3]

Those four lifts are often referred to as strong lifts. They comprise the mainstay of what I use for building strength too. They are not body building lifts. Does that mean body builders can't use them? No, but it's the same as saying "I know some TKD practitioners that know some judo throws and thus judo is part of TKD". No, they're separate disciplines but can be cross-trained.

Throws should be part of TKD, but that's a totally different issue.

 

[JP3]

Body building is the development of the physique for competitive exhibition.

I agree in the sense of all such "competitive exhibition." Not just on the stage at a Bodybuilding or Fitness/physique competition. The so called "Pub Musles" (I'd call them Club Muscles myself) are that type of competitive exhibition. I'm completely OK with that, though I don't engage in it. My wife does.

competitive exhibition example. I go to the gym 2x a week with my wife, who I'm proud to say and claim is a hottie. She works at it very hard, and we had a bit of a lifting/workout argument about 8 years ago about inserting basic squats with a Olympic bar into her fitness-based leg and booty workout. She had this conception, which she read in some non-workout women's mag like Cosmo or something, that "Squats will make your butt and legs big and unsightly." So, she had always avoided them.

For me, I do squats as I've had a bad muscular back injury in my teen years, and I need to keep everything structurally sound (torn spinal erector on one side, stupid story involving a girl... of course and a roller skate), and for the obvious strength benefits in MA. It DOES help to have a good squat if you are trying to shoulder or hip throw an opponent during class/competition and you... don't... quite... get... the ... kuzushi. So, you do bad technique and just pick them up. *shrug* I'm not proud of it, but it IS a thing.
For my lady, she does it so she can (bless her heart) continue to wear her thong bikinis on the beach etc and put a one up on the 20-somethings. So, this is competitive exhibition in its purerst form.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Throws should be part of TKD, but that's a totally different issue.

Not to get off track, but I'd like to comment that in some TKD circles, throws, locks and pressure points are the norm. In essence, and I've said this before, TKD can look very much like HKD, and does in many schools. Not an add-on but the actual way it is taught.

 

[kuniggety]

I agree in the sense of all such "competitive exhibition." Not just on the stage at a Bodybuilding or Fitness/physique competition. The so called "Pub Musles" (I'd call them Club Muscles myself) are that type of competitive exhibition. I'm completely OK with that, though I don't engage in it. My wife does.

competitive exhibition example. I go to the gym 2x a week with my wife, who I'm proud to say and claim is a hottie. She works at it very hard, and we had a bit of a lifting/workout argument about 8 years ago about inserting basic squats with a Olympic bar into her fitness-based leg and booty workout. She had this conception, which she read in some non-workout women's mag like Cosmo or something, that "Squats will make your butt and legs big and unsightly." So, she had always avoided them.

For me, I do squats as I've had a bad muscular back injury in my teen years, and I need to keep everything structurally sound (torn spinal erector on one side, stupid story involving a girl... of course and a roller skate), and for the obvious strength benefits in MA. It DOES help to have a good squat if you are trying to shoulder or hip throw an opponent during class/competition and you... don't... quite... get... the ... kuzushi. So, you do bad technique and just pick them up. *shrug* I'm not proud of it, but it IS a thing.
For my lady, she does it so she can (bless her heart) continue to wear her thong bikinis on the beach etc and put a one up on the 20-somethings. So, this is competitive exhibition in its purerst form.

Pics or it didn't happen

 

[JP3]

Not to get off track, but I'd like to comment that in some TKD circles, throws, locks and pressure points are the norm. In essence, and I've said this before, TKD can look very much like HKD, and does in many schools. Not an add-on but the actual way it is taught.

Yep, we often cross-trained the HKD in TKD class, generally when answering someone's SD question.

 

[JR 137]

I agree in the sense of all such "competitive exhibition." Not just on the stage at a Bodybuilding or Fitness/physique competition. The so called "Pub Musles" (I'd call them Club Muscles myself) are that type of competitive exhibition. I'm completely OK with that, though I don't engage in it. My wife does.

competitive exhibition example. I go to the gym 2x a week with my wife, who I'm proud to say and claim is a hottie. She works at it very hard, and we had a bit of a lifting/workout argument about 8 years ago about inserting basic squats with a Olympic bar into her fitness-based leg and booty workout. She had this conception, which she read in some non-workout women's mag like Cosmo or something, that "Squats will make your butt and legs big and unsightly." So, she had always avoided them.

For me, I do squats as I've had a bad muscular back injury in my teen years, and I need to keep everything structurally sound (torn spinal erector on one side, stupid story involving a girl... of course and a roller skate), and for the obvious strength benefits in MA. It DOES help to have a good squat if you are trying to shoulder or hip throw an opponent during class/competition and you... don't... quite... get... the ... kuzushi. So, you do bad technique and just pick them up. *shrug* I'm not proud of it, but it IS a thing.
For my lady, she does it so she can (bless her heart) continue to wear her thong bikinis on the beach etc and put a one up on the 20-somethings. So, this is competitive exhibition in its purerst form.

When I taught high school physical education, I always taught the squat as part of my strength training unit. The boys liked it, and the girls hated it. Most common answer why they didn't want to do it (excluding the ones who didn't want to do anything at all) - it'll make me too big and manly.

That's a common misconception. I read a scientific study on the squat when I was in grad school that found people who squatted every workout had lower body fat than those who didn't. The squat was used with light weight as a warmup on days it wasn't used as a regular lift. And just because they're squatting with weight doesn't mean they have to load up the weight like a power lifter would; they can use weight and reps just like every lift they're currently doing.

When I explained it that way, the girls who actually lifted incorporated it into their routine. And most of them actually liked it.

It's all about perspective. If they look at it that way, it's just a different way of doing lunges, which most women have no problem with.