How does your Kwoon/club/school aproach sparring in Wing Chun?

[dungeonworks]

Just curious to hear how your school does or does not spar. I am two months into it and would like to hear how you all go about it. I know some Wing Chun sticks to the drills and does little or no free-sparring for various reasons....and I am not saying any is wrong or right since I am not in a position to judge anything Wing Chun.

I will say that I have seen lots of stuff on YouTube...some which looks absolutely USELESS and HIDEOUS by any name, but I really am intrigued by some of the Russian clubs posting on there as well as some of the European approaches to sparring. Don't know what educated eyes would see but it looks cool and practical.

 

[matsu]

.quote
"...and I am not saying any is wrong or right since I am not in a position to judge anything Wing Chun.

I will say that I have seen lots of stuff on YouTube...some which looks absolutely USELESS and HIDEOUS by any name, "

i might be wrong to point this out fella but if you are not in a position to judge WHY make that comment?
i am new to this board and perhaps i am taking your question wrongly but.......

as a beginner to wing chun coming from a different type of MA i have nothing but respect for something i know nothing of. same with bjj jkd or any of the arts.

my club practises sparring in a real life senario type of way.
if you are looking at chi sao then it might not look effective but it is a drill to prepare people to learn more about reflexes positioning sensing and eventually honing their art.

if you can refine your question a little more perhaps an experienced member will give you a more definitive answer.
matsu

 

[dungeonworks]

.quote
"...and I am not saying any is wrong or right since I am not in a position to judge anything Wing Chun.

I will say that I have seen lots of stuff on YouTube...some which looks absolutely USELESS and HIDEOUS by any name, "

i might be wrong to point this out fella but if you are not in a position to judge WHY make that comment?
i am new to this board and perhaps i am taking your question wrongly but.......

as a beginner to wing chun coming from a different type of MA i have nothing but respect for something i know nothing of. same with bjj jkd or any of the arts.

my club practises sparring in a real life senario type of way.
if you are looking at chi sao then it might not look effective but it is a drill to prepare people to learn more about reflexes positioning sensing and eventually honing their art.

if you can refine your question a little more perhaps an experienced member will give you a more definitive answer.
matsu

You are taking that statement wrongly. Re-read it again and notice where I wrote "...by any name". Sloppy is not hard to see, nor is useless and hideous. I am speciffically stating that I cannot tell "Good Wing Chun" or "Bad Wing Chun". The Wing Chun label seems to be the root of discord between more than a few Wing Chunners...no matter how they spell it Ving Tsun, Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Wing Tzun....ect.

I'm new to Wing Chun, not martial arts or fighting in general therefore when something looks like "junk" from an outside (NON-Wing Chun) perspective it isn't hard to tell. There are lots of it on YouTube (on ANY topic, not just Martial Arts), hence my curiosity of how members here handle their sparring or fighting skills. I believe I asked this in my post clearly and even asked if it is more drill based (chisao, push-hands type stuff) or do you include free-sparring.

I am in no way saying Wing Chun is junk, not by any stretch....I wouldn't even waste my time if I didn't see something in it (which I do see a LOT I can use in it). I was referring to a few of the videos on YouTube with way out of shape, soft, sloppy (by any style's standards), and unrealistic to any real world scenario I have seen in person or video. There are a lot of good things on there too, but since this snippet is under the microscope, I will explain....

My thread was out of curiosity and nothing more. My martial motivation has been reignited since I found Wing Chun as I have wanted to train it since childhood....and yeah, the curiosity started with the whole Bruce Lee thing and the very few Chinese martial arts schools in my area at the time. Back then, TKD, TSD, and a few Karate schools (Isshinryu and Koei-Kan) were all we had in my area. I have done loads of full contact sparring, ametuer kickboxing, dabbled for a year or so in MMA/Grappling, and had a few bar room scraps here and there back in the day. I am liking the Wing Chun because it fills the gaps on things not taught in other arts. The drills, which we do a lot of, they really help me understand the sensitivity. The angling and taking center, that was never taught in any of the arts I have done...well, directly as part of a curriculum anyways, but some centerline principles are in other arts, just not as refined and focused on as I've seen thus far in Wing Chun.

 

[matsu]

my apologies if i sounded like a dick.i,m still not sure i read it like how you meant it,but my school teacher many years ago said my comprehension sucked!!
ive not seen to much on youtube or similar. and now i def wont be going looking.:0
in future i will refrain from posting a quick off cuff reply
matsu

 

[brocklee]

Spar ? No. There's no way to justify points nor can you place limits to WC. We either play or do competition chi sao and drills. Thats what I've been taught. Im sure it varies from sifu to sifu. Mine wont even teach to children.

 

[KamonGuy2]

We integrate boxing motions with loose wing chun footwork and get comfortable at long range
This involves doing very light pak saos (which are similar to 'slips' in boxing)
It is important to do sparring if you are a martial artist, to increase your movement, reactions against incoming attacks and to help our stamina

I must emphasise that it is unwise to spar using just wing chun techniques. The punches have to adapt to deliver punching at long range
The nature of wing chun is such that you get in, stay in and attack your opponent. You do not want to get used to hitting then jumping back etc and prolonging the fight

We only do sparring at Kamon because sometimes you get caught in a long range fight and chunners aren't always sure how to deal with that

The other method is to do feeding techniques where you practice drilling in your wing chun attacks. Then you take it up a level (when you are ready) and get the person to put up a little resistance (single guard etc). Then when you are ready, you do the full contact, full resistance. It does look a little sloppy, but is very effective at street level

 

[dungeonworks]

my apologies if i sounded like a dick.i,m still not sure i read it like how you meant it,but my school teacher many years ago said my comprehension sucked!!
ive not seen to much on youtube or similar. and now i def wont be going looking.:0
in future i will refrain from posting a quick off cuff reply
matsu

Absolutely no apology needed Matsu....I should because it is NOT rare for me to have one point in mind while another comes out through my grammar. It happens daily in real time too with my verbal skills....just ask my very understanding wife! :roflmao:

 

[dungeonworks]

...and there is some very well done Wing Chun stuff on YouTube too. I didn't mean to say it was all bad, just a some exceptions and even that is just my opinion and from a "fighting persp[ective" and not Wing Chun since I couldn't tell you what is "good" WC or "bad" WC.

A member here GrayChuan puts up a lot of vids from his school. I enjoy seeing them and at one time was looking for his Sifu's (Sifu Ali Rahim) Wing Chun when they were in Michigan or shortly after they left to Louisville. Looks like a good program there.

 

[dungeonworks]

Spar ? No. There's no way to justify points nor can you place limits to WC. We either play or do competition chi sao and drills. Thats what I've been taught. Im sure it varies from sifu to sifu. Mine wont even teach to children.

Thanks Brocklee, I wasn't even thinking competition. The placing limits on Wing Chun is a point I have heard a few times now, and understandably so. I am just starting to learn to roll hands, the motion, not the complete drill. We do a lot of other simpler drills and the more advanced guys Chi Sao. I am still in that purgatory between learning Wing Chun and unlearning my Karate habits (hate to use that phrase and mean only that it is so different in Wing Chun compared to ways I am rooted in).

The thing that prompted my question was different vids I have seen of Wing Chun sparring and how different some people do it or don't do it at all. Again, I am not judging one way or another or saying one way is worse or better.

Thanks Brocklee

Gary

 

[dungeonworks]

We integrate boxing motions with loose wing chun footwork and get comfortable at long range
This involves doing very light pak saos (which are similar to 'slips' in boxing)
It is important to do sparring if you are a martial artist, to increase your movement, reactions against incoming attacks and to help our stamina

I must emphasise that it is unwise to spar using just wing chun techniques. The punches have to adapt to deliver punching at long range
The nature of wing chun is such that you get in, stay in and attack your opponent. You do not want to get used to hitting then jumping back etc and prolonging the fight

We only do sparring at Kamon because sometimes you get caught in a long range fight and chunners aren't always sure how to deal with that

The other method is to do feeding techniques where you practice drilling in your wing chun attacks. Then you take it up a level (when you are ready) and get the person to put up a little resistance (single guard etc). Then when you are ready, you do the full contact, full resistance. It does look a little sloppy, but is very effective at street level

Thanks Kamon Guy. I think every style looks at least a little sloppy at the street level because the ante is upped over a ring or sparring session.

So when you guys spar are you transitioning between boxing and Wing Chun or just modifying for longer range? Sounds pretty interesting.

Gary

 

[brocklee]

Ive been reading alot about "Slop" and have viewed it LOTS on youtube. The thing is, a seasoned practitioner wont display slop. The more you learn and practice, the less moves you have to use during a battle or just playing because you're more relaxed and in tune with the situation. A while back if an opponent approached me with 3 separate punches...I would counter with 3 different blocks and then start applying offense afterwards. Now, if I have the same opponent throwing the same 3 punches, I would throw up a single bong on the first punch, rotate towards the second punch thrown and block the 3rd punch with my centerline punch. Less motion = less thinking = more control.

 

[geezer]

...A while back if an opponent approached me with 3 separate punches...I would counter with 3 different blocks and then start applying offense afterwards. Now, if I have the same opponent throwing the same 3 punches, I would throw up a single bong on the first punch, rotate towards the second punch thrown and block the 3rd punch with my centerline punch. Less motion = less thinking = more control.

Interesting, but hardly the most efficient approach. Of course, in sparring, anything can happen, and bong sau may be necessary...but it is one of the few strictly defensive techniques in the art (as normally applied). How much more efficient to counter with a deflecting counterpunch, or any of the many simultaneous defense and counter moves like tan-da sau, pak-da sau, gaun-da sau, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[brocklee]

Interesting, but hardly the most efficient approach. Of course, in sparring, anything can happen, and bong sau may be necessary...but it is one of the few strictly defensive techniques in the art (as normally applied). How much more efficient to counter with a deflecting counterpunch, or any of the many simultaneous defense and counter moves like tan-da sau, pak-da sau, gaun-da sau, etc. Just my opinion.

There are many moves possible in that situation. I was using that as a reference to describe how less is more in most situations. I actually am kind of addicted to the bong sao. It's taken me so long to get my shoulder to stay flat while throwing it up there that I ended up practicing it all the time and now I can't stop. lol. Anytime my friends play around, I always seem to bong it up. It definitely will be a downfall for me now that I think about it. Thanks for pointing out a weakness, I was completely unaware.

It's still is a great move though because it has so many possibilities.

 

[brocklee]

Interesting, but hardly the most efficient approach. Of course, in sparring, anything can happen, and bong sau may be necessary...but it is one of the few strictly defensive techniques in the art (as normally applied). How much more efficient to counter with a deflecting counterpunch, or any of the many simultaneous defense and counter moves like tan-da sau, pak-da sau, gaun-da sau, etc. Just my opinion.

And you're right about the "most efficient" aspect of it. Something my sifu would have said.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I think that Free sparring (by any rules) would be pointless in a Wing Chun school. Everyone is doing Wing Chun, which is about close ranges with the hands. Therefore, everyone is likely to go to close range, and use the hands. It would end up as Chi Sao. The same principle is true of any style which focuses on a specific range/weapon. That is why people should really cross-spar. You know, take your Wing Chun skills into a Tae Kwon Do school, and mix it up with some of there guys. Otherwise, sparring just becomes Chi Sao.

 

[Mic]

my school does full contact sparring no points or anything just use what u have learned to fight. I have seen some sparring on you tube where they just went at it but thats not what im talking about. with us the sifu is watching to make sure you are working your wing chun not just messy beating each other.we must use our foot work and stay with in your structure. we spar get a taste of real combat so you dont freeze up and you learn to continue to breath stay in your structure and fight so if it happens for real you can be better prepared.

 

[brocklee]

I think that Free sparring (by any rules) would be pointless in a Wing Chun school. Everyone is doing Wing Chun, which is about close ranges with the hands. Therefore, everyone is likely to go to close range, and use the hands. It would end up as Chi Sao. The same principle is true of any style which focuses on a specific range/weapon. That is why people should really cross-spar. You know, take your Wing Chun skills into a Tae Kwon Do school, and mix it up with some of there guys. Otherwise, sparring just becomes Chi Sao.

So true.

 

[dungeonworks]

my school does full contact sparring no points or anything just use what u have learned to fight. I have seen some sparring on you tube where they just went at it but thats not what im talking about. with us the sifu is watching to make sure you are working your wing chun not just messy beating each other.we must use our foot work and stay with in your structure. we spar get a taste of real combat so you dont freeze up and you learn to continue to breath stay in your structure and fight so if it happens for real you can be better prepared.

That sounds like a great approach. I like the sound of that.

 

[dungeonworks]

I think that Free sparring (by any rules) would be pointless in a Wing Chun school. Everyone is doing Wing Chun, which is about close ranges with the hands. Therefore, everyone is likely to go to close range, and use the hands. It would end up as Chi Sao. The same principle is true of any style which focuses on a specific range/weapon. That is why people should really cross-spar. You know, take your Wing Chun skills into a Tae Kwon Do school, and mix it up with some of there guys. Otherwise, sparring just becomes Chi Sao.

I agree on the cross sparring, but feel sparring others in the same style would better you for that. How else could one make that decision if they can't hone the skills in their art against itself? (just a thought, not really a disagreement so much)

 

[KamonGuy2]

Thanks Kamon Guy. I think every style looks at least a little sloppy at the street level because the ante is upped over a ring or sparring session.

So when you guys spar are you transitioning between boxing and Wing Chun or just modifying for longer range? Sounds pretty interesting.

Gary

Yeah the idea is that students can feel comfortable in any fighting range. If a wing chunner tries to close the gap with every opponent, he/she will find themselves one day strugglig, especially against someone who is good on their feet (karate guys, boxers etc). The idea is to be able to 'hold your own' until an opportunity presents itself

We don't want to train pro boxers, but give students confidence in every area, rather than leaving them trying to tan sao a roundhouse kick!!

I have started training intensley in other arts and it has really boosted my confidence. I am pleased to say that the wing chun is extremely effective against the other artists (even black belts). About 1 in 9 times I would get caught by a quick high kick or fast back punch, but generally the reactions of wing chun and strong structures came in handy

If anyone doubts their wing chun, my advice is to go out and try other arts. Most arts like boxing, karate, BJJ and TKD are extremely quick but you will see straight away how your skills fair
(and that was not meant as a reccomendation to go and challenge other schools or 'try it on' with their students, but go in humble and you will see where your wing chun works)