How does training change at Blackbelt?

[Kong Soo Do]

Interesting. We train more than 250 hours a year and it takes about 6 years to 1st Dan.
:asian:

My reply is a little off-topic, but kinda-sorta touches on it, and your post brings it to mind. In the past we've often discussed going away from a multi-level Dan system. In place of it, use a training log system. For example, someone could say they've been a BB for 20 years. Okay, but what does that mean really? Does it mean they've consistently trained for the last 20 years? Or does it mean they became a BB 20 years ago but haven't trained three minutes since? This is where logged training hours come into play.

Let's make up some numbers just for discussion. Let's say it takes 500 hours to become a BB (as well as successfully passing a test). How one arrives at the required 500 hours depends on a couple of factors (the structure of the school and availability of classes and the seriousness of the student). Once the student reaches the 500 hours (or whatever the actual requirement may be), and they successfully pass a test they become a BB. They again log their training hours after this point. In this way, you can differentiate between a 20 year BB that has 6000 logged hours and one that has 501 hours in the same 20 year period.

Now one could also do the same with belt levels as well. Which brings us back to the point of what, if anything, is learned for each Dan level?

Now to be clear, I'm not saying it is wrong for an art to not have 'new' material after the first Dan and having 'experience' count for promotions. Just as it isn't wrong for an art to have new material for a Dan to learn at each level. As long as the art is clear on the point and the student is satisfied with whatever the requirements are to be promoted.

 

[Kframe]

Kong, your posts about training time are raising some interesting questions in my mind with regards to the ATA. Sure they have some issues, but maybe there is a reason they promote the way they do. (not counting the money reason)

I wonder if the ATA gets more BS then they deserve.. I just wanna spar one, under mma rules, and see for my self how good of martial artists they are.

 

[dancingalone]

I wonder if the ATA gets more BS then they deserve.. I just wanna spar one, under mma rules, and see for my self how good of martial artists they are.

What would that prove? MMA rules sparring is not their forte. That would be like challenging a chess player to a backgammon game and then making an evaluation of how "good" he is based upon it.

 

[Kframe]

What would that prove? MMA rules sparring is not their forte. That would be like challenging a chess player to a backgammon game and then making an evaluation of how "good" he is based upon it.

Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..

That is very interesting, I did not know that. Is that organization wide? I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?

 

[dancingalone]

Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..

You're not looking at the bigger picture. MMA rules competition is not a primary activity for the ATA. It may be a tertiary, not even secondary, activity for some schools but it is not the first, second, third, or even 8th offering I would expect the ATA to list out if someone were to inquire about their curriculum.

That's the point. You're trying to define a large group of people by something a majority of their members don't even do.

Now if you want to challenge their point sparring champion from your age category, sure go knock yourself out. They have a huge circuit built around that activity.

 

[dancingalone]

That is very interesting, I did not know that. Is that organization wide? I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?

No. Don't read more into it than there is. It's an optional offering that some schools have, but that's really no different than some KKW-affiliated instructors also having an add-on hapkido or weapons program.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, you're talking about Goju-ryu. It IS a more dense system. (Obligatory no offense intended to anyone. I have a big foot in the TKD camp as well so I love and respect TKD as well.)

Also Aikido. I've trained seven years or about 1200 hours and still have another year of training until I might be eligible for Nidan. In fact it might even be eight years, I can't remember. I always wondered why there were so many high ranking TKD guys around. Kong Soo Do​'s post also explains how we had that young TKD guy, 23 from memory, who was an expert in almost every style and I think 6th Dan in TKD. When I started training the highest ranked guys in Australia were 5th Dan.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

That is very interesting, I did not know that. Is that organization wide? I wonder how long they've been doing this and what their reasoning was for incorporating this training?

From what I can tell, and Balrog can confirm this. It is organization wide. Google tells me it started in 2009. I remember watching a Youtube documentary of the ATA guys training with the Gracie family to learn BJJ and bring it to the Organization. Though Balrog has stated he is not a fan of it, and im sure there are plenty that are not but they offer it for those who want it.

 

[Kframe]

Dancing, Many ATA websites mention it prominently so, id say its a lil more important then 9th place. The fact that, at 3rd dan, ground fighting is required to test says something.

 

[dancingalone]

From what I can tell, and Balrog can confirm this. It is organization wide. Google tells me it started in 2009. I remember watching a Youtube documentary of the ATA guys training with the Gracie family to learn BJJ and bring it to the Organization. Though Balrog has stated he is not a fan of it, and im sure there are plenty that are not but they offer it for those who want it.

Hopefully Balrog will chime in, but my niece and nephew are both involved with the ATA. They have their 2nd and 3rd dans respectively. No MMA training.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancing, Many ATA websites mention it prominently so, id say its a lil more important then 9th place. The fact that, at 3rd dan, ground fighting is required to test says something.

Got a link to the ATA testing requirements I can view? I can't find the official one from from ATA HQ online but as I said my niece and nephew are ATA BBs with nary a repetition of pulling guard in their training.

This list from an ATA-affiliated school doesn't list any ground fighting requirements either. http://www.martialartsnewhampshire....ents/rank_testing_requirements.html?cookies=1 I believe any such material would be optional, but certainly Balrog would know for certain.

 

[SJON]

Ahhh ... Can I link to a videoclip of my own, showing how I think material might be developed after 1st Dan, without breaking forum rules?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ahhh ... Can I link to a videoclip of my own, showing how I think material might be developed after 1st Dan, without breaking forum rules?

Posting links to videos is fine. If you're concerned that it might violate the TOS (for example, with regards to advertising) then send the link to any of the moderation team and we can check it out.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

Very reasonable question. Let me toss this out for consideration; would it be reasonable for an art to offer new information up to the point of becoming a master? Let's take TKD for example. Many brands of TKD have the 4th Dan as master. Would it be reasonable to expect there to be new information up to this point? So a second Dan knows material that a first Dan has never been exposed to before, in addition to having more training time with the material up to that point. And if you (generic you) don't feel that is reasonable, what do you feel the purpose of belts beyond first Dan would be?

I think it is reasonable to expect that your training be more rigorous and more focused with emphasis on trying to do things correctly as opposed to just doing them. My school is more sport oriented than anything else. In a typical class the instructor may call out a combination. Usually he will ask that the black belts add a technique or footwork that the colored belts won't do. He will also come over to us and give a brief explanation or ask us to provide an explanation of the drill. White belts are simply expected to do the combo the best they can. Colored belts will receive corrections about posture or balance. Black belts are usually asked to do more and envision scenarios where the technique would be used. in this case we are privy to information that lower ranks are not.

Okay, but I would again add that sports such as tennis don't have a belt ranking system. True, a sport may have other types of ranking systems. So are we assuming that if the martial art in question is really a martial sport that the belt system is more for paring off equally experienced students? Would any other reason exist for the belt system in these types of arts?

Well, the belt system was created as a way to mark progress and help differentiate experience levels. Belt systems were not created with many martial arts the ranking system came along much later. In many cases the extra knowledge you refer to was handed down to students who demonstrated character, discipline, and loyalty. It really had nothing to do with a belt or a rank. I would agree that modern day martial arts puts more emphasis on the thing around your waist versus the time and effort put into improving yourself.

 

[Kframe]

Dancing I read it in another thread long since dead on another forum. For the life of me I cant find the article any more. Give that Class's are standardized at ATA schools, id say its a high likely hood its taught there.

Honestly I think the ATA MMA thing is fantastic. It at least gives one group of TKD guys a reason to keep there hands up and actually use there hands for defense and this thing we call punching.(No offense guys, I couldn't resist the dig. Feel free to dig me for dojo hopping and being impatient with everything.)

Seriously whats up with the stereotypical BS about guard pulling? You do realize there is more to ground then that right, plus many more ways to take you down. That's just one way.. Good lord..

Edit to add. I May have read it wrong. I don't know I still cant find the dang article I read. All I know is it started in 2009 and is spreading. Plenty of videos out there of it in action. I hope Balrog chimes in and sets it straight.

 

[msmitht]

Actually it is now. From my conversations here in town, they start there MMA sparring rules at black belt. They also train in basic BJJ and standing grappling. Hence my desire to spar under mma rules..

I have seen ATA MMA on YouTube and its a joke. Facemasks on their headgear and foam gloves/boots. As to their bjj training-it consists of individual techniques without resistance and under the guidance of a less than blue belt(bjj) instructor. Blue is the first belt you earn, for no fee BTW, and it typically takes 18-24 months. At that level you understand a few things and the basic strategy but not the whole picture. Only with 8-10 years training 2-4 classes a week under a qualified black belt can you fully understand bjj and be able to teach it properly. Otherwise you have no business teaching it to others.
As to guard pulling-we only do that in tournaments. Otherwise we slam our opponent, mount and beat them silly until they turn over to avoid being hit. Then its time to go to sleep.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancing I read it in another thread long since dead on another forum. For the life of me I cant find the article any more. Give that Class's are standardized at ATA schools, id say its a high likely hood its taught there.

Really you're going to stick to your guns on that? I would suggest more research might be in order on your part. Yes, ATA has some optional MMA training. No, it is not mandatory across the board to earn dan rank or even a 3rd dan. As I said, I have family who can attest otherwise. Unless Balrog jumps in with a affirmation saying otherwise, I think you're very wrong on this.

Honestly I think the ATA MMA thing is fantastic. It at least gives one group of TKD guys a reason to keep there hands up and actually use there hands for defense and this thing we call punching.(No offense guys, I couldn't resist the dig. Feel free to dig me for dojo hopping and being impatient with everything.)

I don't make any value judgement either way. I honestly don't care. People should train whatever makes them happy. I do question whether it is relevant to challenge ATA members to a MMA rules fight to see if they are 'good' martial artists, and I think you're probably fixated on the wrong things when such things occur to you.

Seriously whats up with the stereotypical BS about guard pulling? You do realize there is more to ground then that right, plus many more ways to take you down. That's just one way.. Good lord..

Not sure why this simple throwaway example would be an item of sensitivity for you. But if it matters, I do train BJJ from time to time with a goal of getting my blue eventually. Pulling guard was something I learned in my very first private lesson. <shrugs>

Edit to add. I May have read it wrong. I don't know I still cant find the dang article I read. All I know is it started in 2009 and is spreading. Plenty of videos out there of it in action. I hope Balrog chimes in and sets it straight.

Me too. As I said, I think you're mistaken but I'll be happy to investigate if my familial experience is out of the ordinary if he says so. I think not, knowing how things are at the kiddo's school and from chauffeuring them to my share of tournaments.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well, the belt system was created as a way to mark progress and help differentiate experience levels. Belt systems were not created with many martial arts the ranking system came along much later.

Yes, IIRC it began with Judo. The original color scheme was simply white, brown and black. More than a quarter of a century later Funakoshi Sensei requested to adopt the Dan system to Karate. I believe he was the first to actually issue the Dan rank in Karate. He promoted several to Shodan and a couple to Nidan around the mid 1920's. I caught on relatively quickly after that with many/most Karate systems adopting it within the next 20 years or so. I remember the account of Uechi Kannei Sensei doing a mass promotion circa 1948 where he promoted quite a few up to and including Godan. These of course were senior students with many years of training.

 

[Jaeimseu]

• Korean children really train really long hours each and every day (typical performance does not bear this out nor does commentary from many of those that have visited Korea and viewed their training).
• Korean children are just better at TKD than non-Korean children (see above, not to mention that would be a blatant racial stereo-type).
• Non-Korean's training time is lengthened to make more money.

I've asked this before but never gotten an answer from anyone; The cost of a first Dan cert here in America is (I believe) $85? Is it the same equivalent for the Korean child's first Dan?

In my experience, many Korean kids train Monday through Friday. The majority don't train for crazy amounts of time each day. The ones who do, it shows in their performance. The 'typical' performance is much like the typical performance elsewhere.

I don't think Koreans are naturally better at Taekwondo than other nationalities but there is a very high concentration of top class instruction to be found in a relatively small area. Instructors physical skills tend to be very good. Skills that might be considered special in the States (like full splits) are the norm.

As for training time, I think the perception of what black belt means plays a lot into that. The typical (totally average) student at similar periods of training look pretty similar to me. So an average 2nd poom in Korea and an average 1st poom in the US probably appear similar.

The cost for a dan certificate from Kukkiwon is the same regardless of nationality.


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