How do you throw your jab?
- Thread starter Jonathan
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rutherford
Master Black Belt
Inside, unless knuckles down gives me a better chance of getting through his guard.
rutherford
Master Black Belt
His head.
I'm a top-two knuckles guy, but it doesn't matter as much with boxing gloves. I hit with the verticle fist because that's the way I hit. If I'm turning my fist, it's because of obstacles or I twist my fist after impact.
I'll talk briefly about the boxing perspective, since it's been mentioned and because I know that's one of Jonathan's interests.
Jack Dempsey always said to use a verticle fist for both the lead and cross. But then his style was heavily influenced by bareknuckles boxing and the fighters and equipment of the day. You'll also see a lot of footage of Ali throwing verticle punches. There's definitely styles of western boxing that feature the verticle fist.
However, the horizontal jab is much more common. One of the advantages is that you can use your shoulder to guard when throwing this type of jab. With a verticle fist you're going to be a lot more open to countering hooks. Also, many people find retracting to guard to be faster with the palm-down jab.
I'm a top-two knuckles guy, but it doesn't matter as much with boxing gloves. I hit with the verticle fist because that's the way I hit. If I'm turning my fist, it's because of obstacles or I twist my fist after impact.
I'll talk briefly about the boxing perspective, since it's been mentioned and because I know that's one of Jonathan's interests.
Jack Dempsey always said to use a verticle fist for both the lead and cross. But then his style was heavily influenced by bareknuckles boxing and the fighters and equipment of the day. You'll also see a lot of footage of Ali throwing verticle punches. There's definitely styles of western boxing that feature the verticle fist.
However, the horizontal jab is much more common. One of the advantages is that you can use your shoulder to guard when throwing this type of jab. With a verticle fist you're going to be a lot more open to countering hooks. Also, many people find retracting to guard to be faster with the palm-down jab.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Once again, terminology has me confused. When I think knuckles inside, I mean the fingers are perpendicular to the ground. When I think of knuckles down, I think of what we call an "over twisting" punch, where the knuckles end up parallel to the ground after an extra 90 degree rotation of the wrist. Reverse hand punch does not twist, with the palm being face up on impact and the knuckles perpendicular to the ground. Side fist has a 90 degree rotation from set, with the knuckles ending up parallel to the ground. Use depends on application, with the main goal being to strike the target with the large knuckles of the first and second finger, as opposed to the knuckles of the last two fingers, which, because of size, can break much more easily.
There, clear as mud...:wink:
There, clear as mud...:wink:
rutherford
Master Black Belt
Huh. I'd like to see how you throw that reverse hand. Only time my palm comes up is for an uppercut, and to be honest unless it's a boxing match I've switched to other tools before that one comes out.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
Reverse hand is for an uppercut but it can also goes to the solar plexus. Another target is the temple, after sidestepping and parrying a punch.
I've thrown jabs both ways; if I'm focusing on boxing only, it would depend on my intent. The vertical fist (knuckles inside, unturned) is, to me, a little snappier; I'm likely to use it to lead to something else. The turned, horizontal fist feels like it's got more OOMPH, so if I'm throwing a jab by itself, it's likely to turn.
Of course -- I think most of the time, I just throw 'em, and don't think about it!
Of course -- I think most of the time, I just throw 'em, and don't think about it!
rutherford
Master Black Belt
For countering hooks, footwork and positioning is my key. I don't like giving the other guy any chance to step to the outside of my forehand. If he's circling that way a lot, I'll switch stances. I usually jab with the right, and I'm right handed.
For retraction speed, again it's just not something I'm interested in. Gloved up, I want my jab in the other guy's face. Without a glove, I'm going to want to use the tool that's already within his space. If the jab hand is back to guard, it's because I've moved forward to meet my hand or because he's moved away and it's come home because there's no more good it can do way out there.
I also don't want my shoulder pulled up to guard because of the way I generate power. Instead of providing power with my shoulder, I'm more concerned about leaking power from my shoulder and sustaining impact trauma. Thus, I want to keep my shoulder packed tightly in the socket. And everybody should keep their elbos tight.
Finally, I believe the verticle fist is a little harder to see coming, since it travels up the centerline.
For retraction speed, again it's just not something I'm interested in. Gloved up, I want my jab in the other guy's face. Without a glove, I'm going to want to use the tool that's already within his space. If the jab hand is back to guard, it's because I've moved forward to meet my hand or because he's moved away and it's come home because there's no more good it can do way out there.
I also don't want my shoulder pulled up to guard because of the way I generate power. Instead of providing power with my shoulder, I'm more concerned about leaking power from my shoulder and sustaining impact trauma. Thus, I want to keep my shoulder packed tightly in the socket. And everybody should keep their elbos tight.
Finally, I believe the verticle fist is a little harder to see coming, since it travels up the centerline.
Same here, I just let them happen, there's always a turn, just sometimes not as much as others.
Well actually this has a big impact on the JKD straight blast / 2 inch punch.
I don't know if I can describe it correctly for anyone to understand why it impacts it.
When the knuckles are straight up and down the elbow bends up for guard. When the knuckles are left to right the elbow bends inwards.
So for Strike -> Eblow -> Cynch the optimum solution would be to have your knuckles left to right.
For Strike -> Guard -> Strike the optimum solution would be the virticle / up and down knuckled jab.
I don't know if I can describe it correctly for anyone to understand why it impacts it.
When the knuckles are straight up and down the elbow bends up for guard. When the knuckles are left to right the elbow bends inwards.
So for Strike -> Eblow -> Cynch the optimum solution would be to have your knuckles left to right.
For Strike -> Guard -> Strike the optimum solution would be the virticle / up and down knuckled jab.
searcher
Senior Master
I use a boxing style jab wih the fist in a horizontal orientation at the point of contact. At the point of contact I start my retraction. My reasoning behind "rolling" my fist over is to utilize my tricep strength. I keep my elbow down and in through the full extension and during retraction. This allows for all of the forc'e to be directed forward into the target and not wasted by deflecting angles. I try to retract at double the speed I send it out to allow for as much transfer of energy as possible. I use this style of jab whether it is in the boxing ring or kickboxing ring or even on the street. It has proven very effective and leads to very little questioning about training history(if used in a street fight). My hands always start at my cheeks and they always return to my cheeks. If I am in a position where I cannot use this style of jab will switch to another hand technique. I picked up the use of vertical fist techniques from and Isshin-ryu instructor, but I have not/will not replace my standard jab with this technique.
Pretty much knuckles down (horizontal), no twisting.
The no twisting is really the thing IMO. It all depends on where the rest of your arm is. With a shoulder to cheek type of position, more of a western style protecting the jaw line while you punch, the hand will naturally end up pretty horizontal. Not quite, but close. Don't try to put a angle on it that seems unnatural, it probably is, and probably will end up hurting.
From a more "traditional" type of posture. Head up, back straight, punch from the hip, it will naturally end up more vertical, not quite, maybe a 30' angle or so.
The no twisting is really the thing IMO. It all depends on where the rest of your arm is. With a shoulder to cheek type of position, more of a western style protecting the jaw line while you punch, the hand will naturally end up pretty horizontal. Not quite, but close. Don't try to put a angle on it that seems unnatural, it probably is, and probably will end up hurting.
From a more "traditional" type of posture. Head up, back straight, punch from the hip, it will naturally end up more vertical, not quite, maybe a 30' angle or so.
Ken Pfrenger
Green Belt
Vertical fist if I have room to do a trigger step and horizontal if in close using a shoulder whirl for power....all ala Dempsey. And after Dempsey I call it a jolt rather than a jab. Dempsey said if you are going to throw your hand out make it count....I couldn't agree with this more.
Boyd Ritchie
Yellow Belt
Nice thread. There are a couple of things that got my attention and I would like to simply state a couple of points for thought:
1. The jab can be and should be a knock out punch when thrown properly.
2. Power in punching should always be developed from the hips. Whether you are punching, throwing or using weapons your power is generated from your nipples to your knees. Even casting punches though shoulder generated get their power from your hips. Watch good ground strikers in MMA. The good ones always position themselves so that they can employ hip movement in ground and pounding.
3. the JKD straight blast (Chit chun choy) is not a jab. It is a disorienting series of punches again developed from the hip designed to cause the opponent to cover up, turn away and allow you to penetrate his defense.
In real world self defense an open palm strike either straight or 'hooked' can be as or more devastating than a closed fist with less chance of breaking your hand or fingers. It also allows for you to naturally grab your opponent for clinch, take down,or throw depending on your training.
JMHO after 28 years of training. People tend to do better with what ever they are most comfortable with though. Experimentation is the key to growth. An open mind is the way to truth.
1. The jab can be and should be a knock out punch when thrown properly.
2. Power in punching should always be developed from the hips. Whether you are punching, throwing or using weapons your power is generated from your nipples to your knees. Even casting punches though shoulder generated get their power from your hips. Watch good ground strikers in MMA. The good ones always position themselves so that they can employ hip movement in ground and pounding.
3. the JKD straight blast (Chit chun choy) is not a jab. It is a disorienting series of punches again developed from the hip designed to cause the opponent to cover up, turn away and allow you to penetrate his defense.
In real world self defense an open palm strike either straight or 'hooked' can be as or more devastating than a closed fist with less chance of breaking your hand or fingers. It also allows for you to naturally grab your opponent for clinch, take down,or throw depending on your training.
JMHO after 28 years of training. People tend to do better with what ever they are most comfortable with though. Experimentation is the key to growth. An open mind is the way to truth.
Can - Yes
Should - On occasion
Jabbing is very often meant to do something other then inflict damage, often it is thrown with little intent that the jab actually lands.
If you throw every jab as if it was a power punch you won't last long against a experienced fighter.
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