How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....

[Anarax]

I should make it clear that I do not think your wrong. I just approach it differently.

Nor do I think you are either. I agree our approaches are just different.

Every teacher will agree that one of the most annoying situations is when your showing a technique and someone keeps interjecting.." well what about this...what if he does this...what if..what if.." they are bringing up variables with the aim of using complexity to invalidate the technique, but more than that they are intended to undermine the teachers credibility.

That's not what I said nor implied in my post. My overall point was there's an entire spectrum of tactics one can use to deter a stalker, but many of the tactics will be dependent on the situation.

Variables matter but only when your actually defending yourself, not when someone is trying to express an underlying concept. Using the phone is a tactic, one out of an infinite number. The underlying principal is as i explained "strategic stalemate" . You focused on the details but perhaps missed the underlying principal.

My concept in this matter for the young girl is survival/protection. Doing what she can to prevent being assaulted/abducted/murdered is the only thing I deem important. Going to a crowded place, calling the police, using pepper spray she's trained how to use are all actions based on the survival/protection concept.

I should add that calling the police is always advisable during or after any crime or self defense situation. But it's seldom a useful defense for immediate and present danger.

Hence is why I said

Getting on the phone immediately with the police and at the same time looking for the most crowded area would be my first priority. I believe there are phone apps that send a distress signal when activated, check with your local law enforcement to see which ones are compatible with their systems and what they recommend.

and

Depending on the laws in your area, pepper spray is a great option. However, they must be trained in how to use it effectively and safely(for the user).

I approach it from multiple angles but with the same underlying concept of survival/protection. How can you prepare before the situation(training, buying pepper spray, etc), and what to do during the situation(head for crowded areas, call police, etc).

 

[pdg]

using pepper spray

Seeing as how the topic being discussed is based on events that have happened in the UK, it's probably sensible to point out that pepper spray is not legal to carry here.

It's classed as an offensive weapon and public possession carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 (possibly still different in Scotland), so anyone over that age will be dealt with directly.

Probably not the best recommendation to make...

 

[pgsmith]

OK, I have a bit different view than most here it seems.

You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve, we are so used to seeing precocious children on the television and films that we forget that it isn't true of most of them.

This is quite true, depending upon where you live. You'll see much less naivety in the inner cities and more depressed areas because the lessons being taught to the young are much different there. When I was a kid, all the kids knew who was hanging around and who was watching them. It was a matter of survival.

I doubt this is anything new, Tez. We just hear about it more (and more quickly) because our information flow has changed. And we recognize many things as being improper that would previously have been dismissed (like a lot of the stuff out of Hollywood in the last few months).

This is very true also. I believe there has always been a certain percentage of the population that is this way. In the past, smaller numbers of people resulted in a smaller number of psychopaths overall. Combine this with the inefficient news media and social mores of the times, and this was something that rarely got discussed.

Now there are a great many more people, and all of us are intimately connected through the internet. We not only have a lot more psychopaths in sheer numbers, we also hear about their outrages much more often.

I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.

This is the fault of the parents. It is my opinion that parents today attempt to shield their children from all the bad things in life. While this may (arguably) result in a happier childhood, it also results in children that do not have the necessary tools to ensure their own safety. While you can argue that they shouldn't have to keep themselves safe, the reality is that they are required to be their own first line of defense. In order for that to happen, they have to have a very good idea of what they need to be wary of, and parents just aren't teaching their children this.

I was as guilty as anyone else about this. I grew up in a rough low rent neighborhood. I did not want my kids to have to go through what I did as a child, so I made sure they grew up in a much nicer area with better schools, and I shielded them from a great many of life's harsh realities. It was only later when they struggled learning how to get by on their own that I realized what I disservice I had done them by shielding them so completely. I needed to expose them more to the realities of life, and allow them to fail more at things that wouldn't result in their injury. This would have made things much easier for them once they were on their own, and would have most likely prevented my youngest from being sexually assaulted.

Encouraging the parents to be more proactive in teaching their young women about predators and how to spot them would go a long ways toward making young women safer. Teaching both the parents, as well as the young women, what areas to avoid, how to maintain awareness of their surroundings, and what to do to discourage a predator (attract attention mainly) would also go a long way toward making young women safer. These things are fairly easily done, and yet no one is doing them on a consistent basis.

OK, that's my two cent's worth for the day.

 

[Anarax]

Seeing as how the topic being discussed is based on events that have happened in the UK, it's probably sensible to point out that pepper spray is not legal to carry here.

It's classed as an offensive weapon and public possession carries a maximum sentence of 10 years.

The age of criminal responsibility is 10 (possibly still different in Scotland), so anyone over that age will be dealt with directly.

Probably not the best recommendation to make...

Good to know, I was unsure what the UK laws concerning pepper spray were. However; the overall concept of survival/protection is universal and some from where it's legal may find the pepper spray recommendation useful .

 

[Tez3]

This is the fault of the parents.

The thing is, that's not my point, as I explained already, it's that the entertainment media has the writers of films etc make children seem far more grown up and smart than they really are, it's obvious, how else would kids on television solve murders, become pop stars etc. Look at children's television shows and those children bear little resemblance to real children's lives. The television children and families are created for smart jokes, witty comments etc.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.

That's exactly it. Putting a label on it validates/"normalizes" their feelings and facilitates their gathering and mutual reinforcement of these disgusting beliefs.

 

[drop bear]

While this is an important question, we can't address individual threats this way before they happen. Perhaps (we don't have enough information and knowledge yet) we could find a way to reduce the number of them through societal/social actions, so as I said it's an important question to ask.

Not sure how it is uncommon. Bullying has the same motivation, fights in pubs have the same motivation, spreading rumors in the workplace has the same motivation.

Every guy I kick out of a pub wants me to feel bad. That is why they stand out the front yelling abuse or stalk me in the car park after work.

We are not talking some unique motivation from a small percentage. Just a unique target group.

 

[oftheherd1]

i want to address a few issues that were brought up. the predators post said (paraphrased) the girl notices and goes from walking to walking briskly, to running. she tires to quicken her pace and lose me. meaning she is taking a path that is purposeful to prove to herself that he is following her. notice he said she quickens her pace to a run. i do not think anyone meandering though a busy area like a shopping mall is going to be running. when someone is following you in this manner he is purposeful and will be looking at her at certain points. now i do not want to speak for the other gender but i believe we all know when someone is making glances at us and i think women are more in tune to men looking at them in undesirable ways.
while a theoretical case could be made that filming the potential stalker might entrap innocent men, i find it highly doubtful in the real world. sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera. (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me") they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed. in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.
as far as confrontation, i do not think it would escalate. ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.
also it doesnt have to be confrontational. i do think that approach works well in many cases but it takes courage. the girl could do what girls tend to do...take selfies. consistently pointing the phones camera lens in his direction. the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else.
using the phone camera is a tactic, it doesnt have to be Facebook live, it could be used anyway the person feels will work in that particular situation.
the underlying principal is to "create a strategic stalemate". this means taking defensive actions as soon as possible. calling the police because you think someone is following you would not be my advise. first off, most times the victim is not sure where that line is , when should they call. its like having chest pain. do i call the doctor? do i call an ambulance? i dont want to look like a fool calling the ambulance and the EMT"s for heartburn. maybe ill wait a bit and see if i feel better.
sometimes its obvious, most times its not.

so what i advise is to react as soon as you think something is happening. but that doesnt mean press the panic button and call the police (who are not going to be much help anyway). you dont jump in absolutes. you make smaller incremental moves creating that "strategic stalemate" where it will cause a reaction of either defusing the attempted attack or forcing the assailants hand to reveal himself if he is determined. in which case you now know the extent of the danger and can jump from 0 to 60 in flight or flight mode, color RED. by acting in this manner you should have put yourself in a better position to defend yourself. Cross the street, leave the premises, move closer to the door, position yourself to conceal your draw, cover/ concealment, get ahead of the crowd. its not yelling fire in a movie theater, its small and subtle so if its a false alarm you can recoup and go about your day. but the sooner you react the more effective it is.

That is a well thought out answer @hoshin1600. I have been holding back and giving this some thought, but I want to give my opinion of three of your comments above. I not saying for sure they are very wrong, and maybe not wrong at all. The problem I see is that I think it is difficult to give a one-over-all answer for all circumstances. And that will apply to my answers as well.

I understand not thinking it would escalate. I want to believe that. But these type of people can so easily escalate their desires and therefore their own actions. Note how the writer of the article kept saying he did not want to escalate to violent action. Yet he is doing things to imply to young girls that he will. I think he doth protest too much.

Ask any policeman what he thinks about calling police if you think you are in danger. I think he will tell you to do so. I think he will be right if he does tell you to do so. And if he is able to respond in time to identify the perpetrator, as you said, the perpetrator will have to take that into account before he considers doing so again.

I agree with quick and thought out reaction. But I think more attention needs to be paid to your expression of not pressing the panic button. I think that is something that should be taught any potential victim in any situation. How do we do that with young girls when it is perhaps difficult to teach to adults? I don't know if I can provide good teaching methods, at least not without more though. But I really think that is a good point.

 

[jobo]

They appear (not unexpectedly) to dehumanize the women they talk about. I think their type has always existed. To some extent the least radical were tolerated in the past, and we just didn’t hear about the others much, unless we actually knew one (that “crazy uncle”). They were isolated, so kept more to themselves. With social media, they now have a “community”, which allows them to perceive themselves as normal, and to get reinforcement and approbation for their attitudes.

Yes but, the community is feeding off its self to make them feel less normal and more sub human and more isolated and more angry,

People do ask for support/ help are told forget it, it's pointless, kill yourself, it's a really really unhealthy place for vulnerable people let alone the potential damage to others out side that community.

There's a post asking others to post vids of nice looking girls getting punched or run over as this apparently Cheers e them up.

As Jim morrison Sang " women are wicked, when your unwanted"

 

[Tez3]

Don't forget though the Incel groups are also anti men 'who aren't them', the ones they call 'Chads', there's talk of acid attack, shootings, and of course using vehicles. They blame these men for having too much sex with women ( no, I don't know either!)
Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online, they in fact do share a lot of ideology with IS as well as far right movements. There's evidence that the ultra Xtian groups also have their part to play as women are seen as subservient to men and that often young men from these groups find it hard to make relationships with females.

Get Serious About Online Misogyny Before More Women Are Killed | HuffPost

This is a quote that floors me " Basically, their virginity is a discrimination or apartheid issue, and only a state-distributed girlfriend programme, outlawing multiple partners, can rectify this grand injustice. Yet at the same time, they hate victims, snowflakes, liberals, those who campaign for any actual equality." From here, another insightful article about the Incel groups. ‘Raw hatred’: why the ‘incel’ movement targets and terrorises women | Richard Hartley

Perhaps whatever else we do we need to be educating people on what our shared values should be. I think too that nay group advocating violence towards anyone needs to be treated as criminal and terrorist. We nee a radical rethink on a great many things that many have to come accept as just being part of normal life. The way of course needs to come from the top, governments, cultural leaders etc but of course it won't because many support this type of thinking so basically we are in rowboat with no oars heading for a waterfall...... or as we say here, we are up sh1tcreek.

 

[Tez3]

PS I don't mean a political solution I mean a humanitarian one. Unlikely I admit but if we don't try we will never know.

 

[hoshin1600]

That is a well thought out answer @hoshin1600. I have been holding back and giving this some thought, but I want to give my opinion of three of your comments above. I not saying for sure they are very wrong, and maybe not wrong at all. The problem I see is that I think it is difficult to give a one-over-all answer for all circumstances. And that will apply to my answers as well.

I understand not thinking it would escalate. I want to believe that. But these type of people can so easily escalate their desires and therefore their own actions. Note how the writer of the article kept saying he did not want to escalate to violent action. Yet he is doing things to imply to young girls that he will. I think he doth protest too much.

Ask any policeman what he thinks about calling police if you think you are in danger. I think he will tell you to do so. I think he will be right if he does tell you to do so. And if he is able to respond in time to identify the perpetrator, as you said, the perpetrator will have to take that into account before he considers doing so again.

I agree with quick and thought out reaction. But I think more attention needs to be paid to your expression of not pressing the panic button. I think that is something that should be taught any potential victim in any situation. How do we do that with young girls when it is perhaps difficult to teach to adults? I don't know if I can provide good teaching methods, at least not without more though. But I really think that is a good point.

i do not think we actually disagree. one of my faults here on MT is that it takes me a long time to type replies out. sometimes its because i am trying to get correct wording other times its because i am looking at reference material to make sure i got my facts right (tho admittedly i should do that more than i do). because of time restrictions i sometimes boil down and distill a huge amount of information into a small snipet of a sentence. i do not have time to write out an entire combative theory for my sentence to have a context. the thoughts are in my head but it doesnt translate to the page.

my entire theory on this subject is all about time. imagine a horizontal time line with a dot right in the middle. that dot represents "the combative event" . the sooner you can start reacting to the situation the better, thus you want your reactions to be on the left side of the time line, more left is better. the actual assault is the dot. you dont want to be reacting at that point along the time line. this is what i mean by not jumping to pressing the panic button. i am referring to that point in time when the assault is in progress. that is the time to panic and react with physical resistance. but prior to that we can still be reacting to the situation. my thought is we should not be waiting for the combative event we should be taking counter measure long before that point in the time line. BUT self defense tends to only focus on the physical confrontation. i advise reactionary behavior long before that happens.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not sure how it is uncommon. Bullying has the same motivation, fights in pubs have the same motivation, spreading rumors in the workplace has the same motivation.

Every guy I kick out of a pub wants me to feel bad. That is why they stand out the front yelling abuse or stalk me in the car park after work.

We are not talking some unique motivation from a small percentage. Just a unique target group.

I never said it was uncommon.

While those all share a common immediate motivator, it's not from the same drive, at all. The thought process of the average guy you throw out of the bar is not nearly the same as the predator in the OP.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Don't forget though the Incel groups are also anti men 'who aren't them', the ones they call 'Chads', there's talk of acid attack, shootings, and of course using vehicles. They blame these men for having too much sex with women ( no, I don't know either!)
Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online, they in fact do share a lot of ideology with IS as well as far right movements. There's evidence that the ultra Xtian groups also have their part to play as women are seen as subservient to men and that often young men from these groups find it hard to make relationships with females.

Get Serious About Online Misogyny Before More Women Are Killed | HuffPost

This is a quote that floors me " Basically, their virginity is a discrimination or apartheid issue, and only a state-distributed girlfriend programme, outlawing multiple partners, can rectify this grand injustice. Yet at the same time, they hate victims, snowflakes, liberals, those who campaign for any actual equality." From here, another insightful article about the Incel groups. ‘Raw hatred’: why the ‘incel’ movement targets and terrorises women | Richard Hartley

Perhaps whatever else we do we need to be educating people on what our shared values should be. I think too that nay group advocating violence towards anyone needs to be treated as criminal and terrorist. We nee a radical rethink on a great many things that many have to come accept as just being part of normal life. The way of course needs to come from the top, governments, cultural leaders etc but of course it won't because many support this type of thinking so basically we are in rowboat with no oars heading for a waterfall...... or as we say here, we are up sh1tcreek.

The word "terrorist" is not misapplied to some of these, though most will never actually express anything we could call terrorism. I think "radicalized" is more accurate - and maybe we (societal "we") can learn something from other studies into radicalization to reduce the self-radicalization of this group, too. Of course, now we're getting into sociology and social psychology, but that's going to end up being a chunk of the answer to this, eventually.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

PS I don't mean a political solution I mean a humanitarian one. Unlikely I admit but if we don't try we will never know.

I think most psychologists would want to find a way to help this group. And I think it's highly likely most can be helped. There are almost certainly at least an average number of psychopaths/sociopaths (by population distribution) among them, and those are probably beyond our current knowledge to begin to help. But if we can help a portion deal with themselves better, that reduces the radicalization opportunity for more of them (fewer like-minded people reinforcing their world view), and the threat to girls.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think most psychologists would want to find a way to help this group. And I think it's highly likely most can be helped. There are almost certainly at least an average number of psychopaths/sociopaths (by population distribution) among them, and those are probably beyond our current knowledge to begin to help. But if we can help a portion deal with themselves better, that reduces the radicalization opportunity for more of them (fewer like-minded people reinforcing their world view), and the threat to girls.

I would like to agree with the bolded part. But I am afraid by the time those begin to engage in their activities, it is too late. If you can identify them before that (I'm not sure how) you may have a chance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would like to agree with the bolded part. But I am afraid by the time those begin to engage in their activities, it is too late. If you can identify them before that (I'm not sure how) you may have a chance.

Agreed. There is a psychological reward from the behavior. Once they get into that reward, it's harder to work on the issues behind their thoughts. I'm thinking more in the long term, finding ways to help before they reach that stage.

 

[hoshin1600]

ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic. Thanks Tez for posting about it.

i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention. there is over lap between them but i do not think they will share the some solution. Anti terrorism seems to do best at defunding and breaking up organized actions, often arresting individuals from a group that can be linked to terrorist activities. but Incel would not be acting as a group and they do not depend on funding. Anti terrorism failed miserably with the Boston Marathon bombers, exactly because they worked alone. Yes we could shut down websights but that ends up being a game of "wack a mole". all that will accomplish is having them go deeper into the web and harder to find.

Basically the Incel movement is a terrorist movement who recruit online

i havnt done my due diligence and read the web sights yet so please dont hammer me to hard if i got this next part wrong.
does Incel really recruit? or are they more like "other perverted sights" (i am at work and really dont want to type out the word and the kind of sight i am referring to...big brother is always watching)... where they only attract people who are already disturbed? the internet is often like a gathering. "build it and they will come".....

i think if this is the case then traditional anti terrorist efforts will not really work, it might call for another different type of solution.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ive really been in deep thought about this entire topic. Thanks Tez for posting about it.

i do not think this group really fits the terrorism label at least so far as prevention. there is over lap between them but i do not think they will share the some solution. Anti terrorism seems to do best at defunding and breaking up organized actions, often arresting individuals from a group that can be linked to terrorist activities. but Incel would not be acting as a group and they do not depend on funding. Anti terrorism failed miserably with the Boston Marathon bombers, exactly because they worked alone. Yes we could shut down websights but that ends up being a game of "wack a mole". all that will accomplish is having them go deeper into the web and harder to find.

i havnt done my due diligence and read the web sights yet so please dont hammer me to hard if i got this next part wrong.
does Incel really recruit? or are they more like "other perverted sights" (i am at work and really dont want to type out the word and the kind of sight i am referring to...big brother is always watching)... where they only attract people who are already disturbed? the internet is often like a gathering. "build it and they will come".....

i think if this is the case then traditional anti terrorist efforts will not really work, it might call for another different type of solution.

I think the overlap is a similar radicalization. In both cases, people get their grievances enhanced and appreciated, and the community has closed discussions, where the least radical voices become "tame" by comparison to the most radical, so anything between those points starts to seem "moderate", though it wouldn't seem so if compared to mainstream thought.

 

[EddieCyrax]

i do not know how applicable it would be for that age group but i am thinking about the girl logging in on her cell phone to face book live and turning, point the phone at him and confronting the man.
"your on facebook live,,,why are you following me?"

i would advise all parents for teens to have a cell phone. they need to be linked into another family members account with GPS tracking app. real life situations have happened where the girl was abducted and was able to send a text and her GPS location via an app to her boyfriend who contacted police and save her.

Only issue with this approach is.....what if the follower really is out for evil intent??? Is the girl trained or prepared to handle what might happen next?? Again, predators target the weak and set the stage to their advantage where ever possible.....