honsuki and NCK

[kenpoquilter]

Well, as one novice to another, you raise a good point. I suppose it would be ‘wrong’, ethically in my mind anyway, to take a form and claim it as your own by changing a few things here or there. Looking at the videos of hon suki that have been posted, they all clearly have the same roots. Variations, yes, but to my untrained eye, they all look as though they came from the same form, the movements are similar in each but each is clearly different…stances are lower in some, timing is different in all of them, some moves are added or taken away, emphasized or not. I don’t view any as ‘wrong’ though. I don’t think any of the individuals have borrowed hon suki and not given credit to the original form. But that’s only my opinion…novice though it may be.

I fear we have ventured far astray from the original question about hon suki and Master Cerio, but I do find this helpful. As a newcomer to this art, I struggle with the question of changes to forms and combinations…where can I adapt to what I can do, where do I leave it alone, how much can I change before someone labels it ‘wrong’? I can’t tell you how many times the phrase “I’ve seen it done this way, too” has been uttered in my classes…is that a bad thing if you look at the differences, analyze them, and take away what works best for you?

 

[youngbraveheart]

...Looking at the videos of hon suki that have been posted, they all clearly have the same roots. Variations, yes, but to my untrained eye, they all look as though they came from the same form, the movements are similar in each but each is clearly different…stances are lower in some, timing is different in all of them, some moves are added or taken away, emphasized or not. I don’t view any as ‘wrong’ though. I don’t think any of the individuals have borrowed hon suki and not given credit to the original form. But that’s only my opinion…novice though it may be....

I just saw your post about your sensei performing the honsuki recently...I think Jesse basically says it all...

You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version... The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs...

Being rather biased, I prefer to see the (original) Hansuki...(maybe Master Chun might be willing to show it this fall at one of his seminars)...nothing against those who have modified this form and especially nothing against those who perform the Honsuki today...since the Hansuki is only for selected blackbelts in our style, I don't have to worry about learning it...I have enough things to learn and know...:boing1:

 

[KENPOJOE]

Is there anyone out there who has learned this form from Master Cerio?

respectfully,
marlon

Hi folks,
Dear Marlon,
Prof.Cerio only taught this form for a short time after returning from Hawaii. He taught only his most advanced black belts at that time. After Frank Cerio taught Fred Villari the form there was a falling out between the two and Prof. Cerio stopped teaching the form. The people who learned the form professor cerio, are still active and online are few if any.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

it is a form different from all the other sk forms. I think that an original form such as this done in the closest way to the original will 'teach' you something of the roots of the style and the style of the originator. in the end i am working on figuring out shaolin kempo. As for still searching...Jesse there is so much i do not know and almost every newe thing i learn teaches me something about what i thought i already knew that...well...forever a student

resepctfully,
Marlon

Hi folks!
The reason the form is "different" is because it comes from an entirely different source. After the form from Prof. Chow was incorporated there was a "reverse engineering" where elements of the form were infused throughout the Shaolin Kempo curriculum
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

BTW, if you guys, (Matt,Chris <Jesse...) are interested it would be great to come down and just train. Work the techniques hard and 'pound' out some questions instead of only thinking about them. your experience and expertise with applications of forms and combinations and some situational attacks with some contact and resistance with other black belts or whoever would be a huge benefit to training. I would love to take some bruises from you guys in org\der to learn and really flesch out some things in SK. Training is truth. Let me know if we can set a date in the spring?

Respectfully,
Marlon

Hi folks!
dear marlon,
Aren't you in Canada? You mentioned coming "down" so it threw me off. New with a passport being needed to go to the "great white north",don't think i can go up there....
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi folks!
Been reading this thread and I just wanted to give in some imput.
The form simply stated has always come from the Chow/Chun lineage. I was honored and privilaged to have Bill Chun Jr. demonstrate the Hansuki form at his first appearence in Rhode Island. I will always be greatful for him taking the time and sharing that with myself and the privilaged few in attendence at that time. Mr. Chun is a private person who is sincere in his life and study of the arts. He speaks from his heart and I appreciate that.
In regards to the form itself, I beleive that he is happy that something from the legacy of his father is being perpectuated through generations in any incarnation. I have tried over the last few years to acertain the proper history,reason & rationale behind the form. I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him. I also detail out various aspects,techniques and actions to attempt to educate kempoists to some of the information I had gleamed from my research. I clearly state that it is the Shaolin Kempo version of the form. I plan to do a second DVD in the form & application including different individuals performing the form to show the diversity of the formats that have been created over the years.
I have placed a small unfinished segment of the DVD on youtube for your perusal.
As to whether Mr. Chun will teach this form to others, I would think he will reserve that for those of his personal students he deems worthy of learning it after a proper ammount of dedicated study. I am available to discuss this form and shaolin kempo in general for those of you interested.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[marlon]

You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version. Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed. The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
In Peace,
Jesse

i am 100% with you on this Jesse! I still would like to see a N.Cerio taught version though, especially since by all accounts he was very strict about this form.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

It's up at my site in a blog post. It's a small video, but reasonably clear.

since we had the same teachers Matt, i guess it is obviuos that we have the same version except for one or two small angle differences and hand positions.
BTW in case i did not say it before your site is a great gift to the SK community!! Thank you for all the work and dedication you put into this for us.
Respectfully,
marlon

 

[marlon]

I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
Jesse

Jesse, the reason i still do the form is because it teaches something of the nature and flavour of GM Chun sr's kempo. It is evident from the distinctiveness of the form that it is not SK as we have it but can improve our sk if we learn from it. Until i have the original i will still teach and study this form and its benefits....but this is just me , right or wrong...

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

I guess I'm confused, and also a new comer to this, so no disrespect is meant. But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'? It seems every time a form is passed from Sensei to Student it will be changed, even if only slightly. Much like a previous reply stated...like playing whisper down the lane, the message changes with each person.

I just don't view this as a 'science' where there is a prescribed method and you must perform the form that way each and every time. We'd all look like a bunch of robots if we did that.

If a form is modified and the movements that differ from the original have a plausible bunkai, what is 'wrong' with that, isn't that how the 'art' evolves and moves forward? Is the issue with calling the form 'hon suki' when it may not be exactly how it was performed originally?

I do not think we need any antagonism btwn kempo as an art and kempo as a science. If done properly both will be satisfied. IMHO

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Hi folks!
dear marlon,
Aren't you in Canada? You mentioned coming "down" so it threw me off. New with a passport being needed to go to the "great white north",don't think i can go up there....
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

I am the one far away so i always plan to go to the States. the passport thing is just for flying at this point, i think not driving. And Joe your input is always helpful.
be well

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Matt]

since we had the same teachers Matt, i guess it is obviuos that we have the same version except for one or two small angle differences and hand positions.
BTW in case i did not say it before your site is a great gift to the SK community!! Thank you for all the work and dedication you put into this for us.
Respectfully,
marlon

Thank you Marlon - you are too kind. Since the one you have should be very close to mine, it should be very obvious the 'oops' in the form. Can you tell this was filmed when I was deep in learning the Kempo-Jutsu forms? There's a small accidental merger. I've been meaning to re-shoot it.

Thanks again, and I'd always be happy to see you to train together.

Matt

 

[Matt]

Hi folks!
Been reading this thread and I just wanted to give in some imput.
The form simply stated has always come from the Chow/Chun lineage. I was honored and privilaged to have Bill Chun Jr. demonstrate the Hansuki form at his first appearence in Rhode Island. I will always be greatful for him taking the time and sharing that with myself and the privilaged few in attendence at that time. Mr. Chun is a private person who is sincere in his life and study of the arts. He speaks from his heart and I appreciate that.
In regards to the form itself, I beleive that he is happy that something from the legacy of his father is being perpectuated through generations in any incarnation. I have tried over the last few years to acertain the proper history,reason & rationale behind the form. I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him. I also detail out various aspects,techniques and actions to attempt to educate kempoists to some of the information I had gleamed from my research. I clearly state that it is the Shaolin Kempo version of the form. I plan to do a second DVD in the form & application including different individuals performing the form to show the diversity of the formats that have been created over the years.
I have placed a small unfinished segment of the DVD on youtube for your perusal.
As to whether Mr. Chun will teach this form to others, I would think he will reserve that for those of his personal students he deems worthy of learning it after a proper ammount of dedicated study. I am available to discuss this form and shaolin kempo in general for those of you interested.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Hey Joe-

It was great to get a chance to visit the other day. I've been checking Youtube since I saw the clip you were prepping - glad to hear it is up. I will always be grateful to Professor Chun, jr. for showing the form - it was an entirely unexpected act of kindness that went way above and beyond at that seminar.

Matt

 

[youngbraveheart]

...I have placed some of my findings on an instructional DVD entitled "Hansuki:History & Tradition" in which I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Jr. for teaching this form to him...

KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "...I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Sr. for teaching this form to him..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)

Johnny

 

[KENPOJOE]

KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "...I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Sr. for teaching this form to him..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)

Johnny

Hi folks!
Yes, Johnny, It was a simple typo, I meant Sr. in reference to him [Sr.] having originally taught the form.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

KENPOJOE, pardon me, but did you mean: "...I give proper credit to Professor William Kwai Sun Chow & William Chun Sr. for teaching this form to him..."? (i.e. GM William Chun Sr. created the Hansuki and taught it to Great GM William Chow.)

Johnny

Hi folks!
Dear Johnny,
RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect.
i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[RevIV]

Hi folks!
Dear Johnny,
RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect.
i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

I was under the understanding that GM Chun Sr. created the form and presented to Prof. Chow who said--good- teach it? the whole paraphrasing part is made up, but i the sequence of how the form became a form is how i know it. Chun sr. created it.
Jesse

 

[youngbraveheart]

I was under the understanding that GM Chun Sr. created the form and presented to Prof. Chow who said--good- teach it? the whole paraphrasing part is made up, but i the sequence of how the form became a form is how i know it. Chun sr. created it.
Jesse

...Hey Jesse, you're right...Master Chun (Jr) and I had a conversation this afternoon...he said that his father showed the form to Great Grandmaster "Professa" Chow, who approved it.

 

[youngbraveheart]

Hi folks!
Dear Johnny,
RE: the I.E comment you wrote, that is incorrect.
i have always clearly stated that Prof. Chow Taught Hansuki to Bill Chun Sr, who as Prof. Chow's main student and Protoge' at that time, then in turn taught it to Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

See reply above...

 

[Matt]

...Hey Jesse, you're right...Master Chun (Jr) and I had a conversation this afternoon...he said that his father showed the form to Great Grandmaster "Professa" Chow, who approved it.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've thought that was the case, but it's nice to hear it from an 'official source'.