Differences Between EPAK and NCK?

[Yeti]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike

Don't be fooled into thinking Cerio was certified or trained by Parker, he wasn't.

Cerio Kenpo and EPAK are two very different animals, go to each one and see which one you like best.

DarK LorD

 

[The Kai]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker. Rough thumbnail sketch, Cerio's kenpo has more of a Karate base to it. But, DKl is right watch and then see what you like

Todd

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker. Rough thumbnail sketch, Cerio's kenpo has more of a Karate base to it. But, DKl is right watch and then see what you like

Todd

No, he was neither trained or certified by Mr. Parker. He may have some sort of a certificate with his name on it as a witness or something but Mr. Parker has never promoted anyone over 8th, and the only man he did that for was Elvis, and there were only 12 7ths at the time of his passing.

DarK LorD

 

[Goldendragon7]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker.
Todd

I have to disagree here before this gets too far out of hand...... DKL is correct, Mr. Cerio was never promoted to anything! Certainly not 10th!! However, he (Cerio) approached Mr. Parker and wanted to join the IKKA under Mr. Parker's guidence and was issued a certificate of rank acknowledging the current rank in which Cerio declared [9th Degree] while at the same time {per their agreement} he would be learning the curriculum of EPAK. Shortly after, a disagreement developed and ended the process.
:asian:

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello, I would like to clear a few things up. First, I feel it's important to establish some crediabilty to answer these questions with a little background. People should know something about the individual who is passing on the information in regards to someone's personal history and reputation. So, here goes. Hanshi Craig Seavey is the co-head of NCK and is in charge of all the schools in the U.S. He was appointed by Nick Cerio's brother, the late Frank Cerio after Mr. Cerio's passing. Craig has been my close friend for over three decades, I made my first black belt in kenpo under his tutledge and we still train together today. Cerio joined Mr. Parker's IKKA around 1966 and became the Rhode Island State Director. Mr. Parker also did a forward in one of Mr. Cerio's early books. They became close friends during this time. Mr. Parker also gave Mr. Cerio an 'intro' to meet Master Bill Chun Sr. who in turn gave an 'intro' for Mr. Cerio to meet Prof. Chow. It was well known that for a period of time they (Cerio & Parker) trained together (Cerio used to take a young black belt student with him to these sessions by the name of Frederick Villari), this information came directly from Cerio to myself in the early 90's. Mr. Parker did indeed promote Mr. Cerio, and it was not 'honorary' either, to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt in "Kenpo Karate", not Ed Parker's Kenpo system. The term, Kenpo Karate, was used rather generically to describe related arts by Mr. Parker. Cerio used to do the same thing only he used "American Kenpo". This was not to be confused with Ed Parker's AK but was what Cerio's original instructor, Mr. George Pesare had called the art he brought to New England circa. 1960. If you trained in his curriculum, he would certify you in NCK but if you studied with him and you were from his original system that Gm. Pesare taught him prior to the advent of NCK, he would rank you in 'American Kenpo' but not NCK. I believe he got this idea from Mr. Parker. Again, this was not only told to me by Professor Cerio but I have seen the original and the copy of his 9th dan certificate signed by Mr. Parker as the instructor who promoted him, NOT a witness. The certificate is completely legit and verfiable. This certificate was given to Craig Seavey with others by Frank Cerio after Professor Cerio's death. I was with Craig the week he got the originals. We were just looking at Cerio's certificates not too long ago at Craig's Framingham school on Waverly St. They are clearly posted on the wall in the reception area as you enter the main dojo. KenpoJoe Rebelo (noted historian and MT member), Sensei Matt Barnes (another noted historian and MT member) and myself have all been at Craig's school and observed the Cerio certificates. This may also be confirmed by NCK historian and webmaster of the NCK site, Shihan John James. As far as the differences in the systems go, Nick Cerio answered this himself in a Q&A in his monthly news letters back in the 90's when someone asked the same question. I still have the newsletter but I'm not at my school right now so I will go by memory and also add whatever knowledge I have on the subject. Prof. Cerio stated that although distinctly different, they are also similiar in many ways sharing a common lineage to Prof. Chow and the Hawaiian derived kenpo systems. Both styles share a 'circulartory' nucleus and have the trademark 'rapid fire' handstriking and low line kicks. NCK techniques, however, are distinguished by ground work and follow ups because Cerio's original black belt was in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. NCK also has the Korean inspired kicking techniques from Cerio's background in Karazenpo and TKD. Cerio stated that although some of his forms were either his own creations or inspired by Karazenpo forms he also used katas and pinans from the traditional karate styles, favoring Shotokan, 'some', but not all, he modified to fit his perspective of the art. He even adopted the Chinese set 'Lin Wan Kune' from Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu. Mr. Parker's first four forms were influenced by Kung Fu stylist Jimmy Woo and the rest were Mr. Parker's own creations. If anyone has any questions of the authenticity of Prof. Cerio's 9th dan from Mr. Parker just e-mail Shihan John James or call Hanshi Craig Seavey by phone at his Framingham, Massachusetts dojo for confirmation. *Also Cerio was not a 9th degree at the time of his promotion from Parker, he was an 8th under Gan Fong Chin with the title of Sifu. We also have this cetificate as well. All I ask is I'm given the benefit of the doubt that my information is accurate and is open for anyone's confirmation if they wish to follow up on what I stated. I stand by this post. Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras

 

[The Kai]

Thank you, I knew there some involvement between the two, not sure how much or the specifics

Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Thank you, I knew there some involvement between the two, not sure how much or the specifics

Todd

Todd, check out my post. We probably posted around the same time and mine just got in ahead of yours, I don't think you saw it yet.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello, I went to my documents to retrieve this e-mail that I saved for moments like this, lol, that Shihan John James had sent to someone in response to Prof. Cerio's 10th dan. For the record, Nick Cerio nor his organization has ever stated in any way, shape or form that he received a 10th from Mr. Parker. This is pure b.s.! Sincerely, Prof. Joe



Hello everyone,
Oki-Ryu Kenpo as it is referred to on the East Coast was founded by Shihan Don Rodrigues. His website is http://www.donrodrigueskarateacademy.com. The system was sanctioned by Professor Cerio. As to the post who referred to the World Council of Sokes (who gave Prof. Cerio his 'above ranking' award) as a dan/rank factory, I can only say that you obviously don't know what you are talking about. In 1989, Professor Cerio tested for his title. That's right. It wasn't GIVEN to him and he didn't pay for it. It was bestowed upon him. The World Council has since changed their name twice and is now the World Head Founders/Head Families Council. I do not know what their standards are now or who is on the board now but in 1989 it was VERY hard to get a title/rank from them. You might have them confused with the other Hall of Fames/Societies that make you pay for your award. But this was not the case here. It would be appreciated if you would refrain from such remarks since Professor Cerio is not here to defend himself. An honorable man would abide by this and would also give his name when making such remarks instead of hiding in anonymity.

Thank you.
John James

 

[Karazenpo]

Please let us also not forget that it was Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, founder of "Kajukenbo" who promoted Mr. Parker to 8th degree black belt in "Kenpo Karate" in the late 60's. This can be confirmed by Sigung John Bishop or by simply going to John's home page and clicking on his interview with Sijo Emperado. This interview is also on the Kajukenbo Cafe. These types of promotions were accepted within the related Hawaiian derived kenpo styles and were not uncommon back then and they still go on today.

 

[Karazenpo]

While I'm on a roll, lol, please allow me to clear up another false statement. Nick Cerio never approached Ed Parker to join his organization to be recognized as a 9th dan in 1983. Nick Cerio did receive dan ranking certificates back in the mid to late 60's (maybe up to around '70/'71, I'd have to check), when he joined Mr. Parker's IKKA and there were at least two, one for 2nd and the other for 3rd degree black belt. On these, I believe they were promotions and not recognized rank because I don't recall Cerio getting a nidan or sandan from anyone else. As matter of fact, if memory serves me correct, they were IKKA promotions because at that time he received a shodan from Gm. Pesare in 1965 and somewhere around 66-67 he received two other shodans, one from Master Bill Chun Sr. and one from Prof. Chow. These are also on display in Framingham, Ma. Believe me, in all due respect to everyone, I am not looking for a 'flame war' but just trying to set the record straight. If he was one of your instructors I'm sure you would do the same.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

While I'm on a roll, lol, please allow me to clear up another false statement. Nick Cerio never approached Ed Parker to join his organization to be recognized as a 9th dan in 1983. Nick Cerio did receive dan ranking certificates back in the mid to late 60's (maybe up to around '70/'71, I'd have to check), when he joined Mr. Parker's IKKA and there were at least two, one for 2nd and the other for 3rd degree black belt. On these, I believe they were promotions and not recognized rank because I don't recall Cerio getting a nidan or sandan from anyone else. As matter of fact, if memory serves me correct, they were IKKA promotions because at that time he received a shodan from Gm. Pesare in 1965 and somewhere around 66-67 he received two other shodans, one from Master Bill Chun Sr. and one from Prof. Chow. These are also on display in Framingham, Ma. Believe me, in all due respect to everyone, I am not looking for a 'flame war' but just trying to set the record straight. If he was one of your instructors I'm sure you would do the same.

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/master_alphabetical_list.htm

http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/p/ed_parker.html

Oddly enough, he's not listed anywhere on the EPAK family tree from 1982, why is that?

Pictures, video, something?

DarK LorD

 

[pete]

Hello, I would like to clear a few things up. First, I feel it's important to establish some crediabilty to answer these questions with a little background. People should know something about the individual who is passing on the information in regards to someone's personal history and reputation. So, here goes. Hanshi Craig Seavey is the co-head of NCK and is in charge of all the schools in the U.S. He was appointed by Nick Cerio's brother, the late Frank Cerio after Mr. Cerio's passing. Craig has been my close friend for over three decades, I made my first black belt in kenpo under his tutledge and we still train together today. Cerio joined Mr. Parker's IKKA around 1966 and became the Rhode Island State Director. Mr. Parker also did a forward in one of Mr. Cerio's early books. They became close friends during this time. Mr. Parker also gave Mr. Cerio an 'intro' to meet Master Bill Chun Sr. who in turn gave an 'intro' for Mr. Cerio to meet Prof. Chow. It was well known that for a period of time they (Cerio & Parker) trained together (Cerio used to take a young black belt student with him to these sessions by the name of Frederick Villari), this information came directly from Cerio to myself in the early 90's. Mr. Parker did indeed promote Mr. Cerio, and it was not 'honorary' either, to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt in "Kenpo Karate", not Ed Parker's Kenpo system. The term, Kenpo Karate, was used rather generically to describe related arts by Mr. Parker. Cerio used to do the same thing only he used "American Kenpo". This was not to be confused with Ed Parker's AK but was what Cerio's original instructor, Mr. George Pesare had called the art he brought to New England circa. 1960. If you trained in his curriculum, he would certify you in NCK but if you studied with him and you were from his original system that Gm. Pesare taught him prior to the advent of NCK, he would rank you in 'American Kenpo' but not NCK. I believe he got this idea from Mr. Parker. Again, this was not only told to me by Professor Cerio but I have seen the original and the copy of his 9th dan certificate signed by Mr. Parker as the instructor who promoted him, NOT a witness. The certificate is completely legit and verfiable. This certificate was given to Craig Seavey with others by Frank Cerio after Professor Cerio's death. I was with Craig the week he got the originals. We were just looking at Cerio's certificates not too long ago at Craig's Framingham school on Waverly St. They are clearly posted on the wall in the reception area as you enter the main dojo. KenpoJoe Rebelo (noted historian and MT member), Sensei Matt Barnes (another noted historian and MT member) and myself have all been at Craig's school and observed the Cerio certificates. This may also be confirmed by NCK historian and webmaster of the NCK site, Shihan John James. As far as the differences in the systems go, Nick Cerio answered this himself in a Q&A in his monthly news letters back in the 90's when someone asked the same question. I still have the newsletter but I'm not at my school right now so I will go by memory and also add whatever knowledge I have on the subject. Prof. Cerio stated that although distinctly different, they are also similiar in many ways sharing a common lineage to Prof. Chow and the Hawaiian derived kenpo systems. Both styles share a 'circulartory' nucleus and have the trademark 'rapid fire' handstriking and low line kicks. NCK techniques, however, are distinguished by ground work and follow ups because Cerio's original black belt was in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. NCK also has the Korean inspired kicking techniques from Cerio's background in Karazenpo and TKD. Cerio stated that although some of his forms were either his own creations or inspired by Karazenpo forms he also used katas and pinans from the traditional karate styles, favoring Shotokan, 'some', but not all, he modified to fit his perspective of the art. He even adopted the Chinese set 'Lin Wan Kune' from Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu. Mr. Parker's first four forms were influenced by Kung Fu stylist Jimmy Woo and the rest were Mr. Parker's own creations. If anyone has any questions of the authenticity of Prof. Cerio's 9th dan from Mr. Parker just e-mail Shihan John James or call Hanshi Craig Seavey by phone at his Framingham, Massachusetts dojo for confirmation. *Also Cerio was not a 9th degree at the time of his promotion from Parker, he was an 8th under Gan Fong Chin with the title of Sifu. We also have this cetificate as well. All I ask is I'm given the benefit of the doubt that my information is accurate and is open for anyone's confirmation if they wish to follow up on what I stated. I stand by this post. Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras

please use the return key or indent paragraphs or something. your posts are informative but very hard on the eyes to read.

 

[Karazenpo]

Ya, Pete, you're right. Sorry about that, I've got a habit of doing that, I'll try to break it, lol. Thanks. Joe

 

[rmcrobertson]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

 

[Karazenpo]

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/master_alphabetical_list.htm

http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/p/ed_parker.html

Oddly enough, he's not listed anywhere on the EPAK family tree from 1982, why is that?

Pictures, video, something?

DarK LorD

DKL, good question, don't know but then don't know what protocol was followed. Remember, Cerio was never, ever ranked in EPAK but Kenpo Karate, maybe those on the tree are students who studiied the EPAK curriculum. I have pictures, yes, there are many. Cerio and Parker together were in several of his NCK Newsletters and like I stated before, he wrote a nice forward in one of Cerio's books. Cerio did indeed run the whole New England branch of the IKKA for Parker in those early years. DKL, if I had a doubt about this I would say so and it would be for selfish reasons, I wouldn't put my name on the line defending a lie or a myth for Nick Cerio or anyone else for that matter. If I was in doubt or knew something otherwise I'd just shut up and let it go. I have seen these certificates with my own eyes and I was very close to Prof. Cerio. We were guests at each others homes. We doubled. We travelled together. My wife and I threw a birthday roast for him at my house with members from all his schools and past students attending. He helped my wife with a surprise BD for me. I'm only bringing this up to let you know I was no outsider looking in believing things on blind faith only. I knew this guy! Hey, there were somethings we didn't agree on either and that stays with him and I but Nick Cerio's connection with Ed Parker was legit, all of it. Nick ended up giving names to his techniques just like Mr. Parker did, Cerio's original system never used names. He also drifted to the Chinese arts like Mr. Parker. When he received his 8th with the title of Sifu from Sifu Gan Fong Chin he was only one of three that Sifu Chin awarded such a high rank and title. Parker had an influence on him and his system and Cerio openly admitted this. He referred to Parker as his coach and stated he helped him create NCK. I'll tell you someone who 'lived it' and is perfectly honest when asked anything about the Professor, his ex wife Nancy Lee Cerio Ambrosia form Rhode Island. We're all getting together on the 29th of this month to honor Prof. Cerio in Massachusetts at his legacy memorial, I wish you could attend. One of his very early black belts will also be there, Donny Rodrigues, along with Nancy and many others. They could all confirm this. Sincerely, Prof. Joe Sorry pete, I did it again, habit, I'll work on it.

 

[Michael Billings]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike

Facinating info y'all, but way, way over the thread starter's head ... and probably not very useful at this time in his Kenpo development. You can request a new thread be started and split this off, or you can bring it down a notch for the Kenpo newby.

I respect your loyalty and need to "respond", however, not on this thread please. Back to topic.

Yeti, with your history in the arts, I also recommend you go observe both classes on a couple of different nights and see which would be the better fit for you.

-Michael

 

[Karazenpo]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

Yeah, Robert, let me elaborate on that a little. Cerio originally came from Pesare who came from Gascon and Kajukenbo and as you know, judo and jui jitsu are two of the arts that make up Kajukenbo. Gascon also had a first level ranking in Judo prior to Kajukenbo. Pesare too, was very into judo. Mat work was stressed from day one in these schools more than in the AK studios. In many of our techniques after the entry and counter attack we usually takedown and follow up as the attacker lay prone on the ground. That's why sometimes we're accused of overkill but we tell students the counterattack can be stopped at any time, we just do follow up in case we need it then it's programmed into us.

Back when I started my instructor would scream at us if we took someone down and didn't follow up! It's an emphasis in our system. I wasn't implying EPAK was deficient in takedowns and follows, I was just answering the question on the differences in the arts. I have found in my studies that all these kenpo/kempo arts are very similiar conceptually, it's usually where the emphasis lies that makes them different in some ways. Take care, Prof. Joe

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Yeah, Robert, let me elaborate on that a little. Cerio originally came from Pesare who came from Gascon and Kajukenbo and as you know, judo and jui jitsu are two of the arts that make up Kajukenbo. Gascon also had a first level ranking in Judo prior to Kajukenbo. Pesare too, was very into judo. Mat work was stressed from day one in these schools more than in the AK studios. In many of our techniques after the entry and counter attack we usually takedown and follow up as the attacker lay prone on the ground. That's why sometimes we're accused of overkill but we tell students the counterattack can be stopped at any time, we just do follow up in case we need it then it's programmed into us.

Back when I started my instructor would scream at us if we took someone down and didn't follow up! It's an emphasis in our system. I wasn't implying EPAK was deficient in takedowns and follows, I was just answering the question on the differences in the arts. I have found in my studies that all these kenpo/kempo arts are very similiar conceptually, it's usually where the emphasis lies that makes them different in some ways. Take care, Prof. Joe

So exactly how much experience do you have with any 1st gen students of Parker, or better yet, how many hours have you trained EPAK? I've seen videos of Cerio and Villari and they do nothing similar to what I do, in fact, it seemed very primitive and ineffective against a reasonably trained fighter, especially one who had grappling or Wing Chun experience. I did try the techniques I saw, and used them on resisting opponents, absolutely no joy, and saw even more when I played the dummy (UKE) and took them in a second person context. I evaluated from all points of view and found them to be unsound for my use.

DarK LorD

 

[KenpoDave]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

I don't recall seeing this claim made.