Holding bricks when you punch

[Flying Crane]

But you are trying to say that weighted punching is for arm/shoulder only punching. Which pretty much nobody does. But a lot of people do weighted punching.

As far as maywether goes it is both.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pllCVGsmojU

oh, most everyone BELIEVES that they are using the body to punch. In most cases they are wrong, or they don't do it nearly as well as they think. There are many subtle disconnections that severely disrupt the technique. On a superficial level it APPEARS that they are putting their body behind the punch, but when you know what to look for you can see that the connection is really very poor, and can be undermined to the point of being essentially non-existant. When that happens, the punch is all arm-shoulder strength driven, with zero body connection. But people continue to be fooled into thinking they've got that connection and are punching with the body driving it.

as far as a lot of people doing weighted punches, well yeah, and a lot of people don't. If you see it as beneficial, then do it. I don't.

I'm not sure what you are trying to show me in this video clip. The fact that he's using heavy gloves? Well he's a boxer, the rules of the game require gloves so he must be able to use them. That doesn't mean it's the best or most efficient way to punch.

as far as his body connection, I see a lot of stuff where it's lacking. Some has it, but it could all be improved. Still, he's a tremendous athlete and clearly he has been very successful and is a very good boxer. He's been able to take what he has and use it quite well. That does't mean it's the best way possible. Athleticism can take one a long way. You don't need perfect technique to be very effective. But what do you want from your training? It's up to you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yet is a pretty consistent method of training used by people who compete in striking. Why do you think that is?

because most people rely on athleticism and strength without understanding good technique. the problem is, they THINK they understand good technique, and they've had some level of success with what they've been doing, so they are often not open to considering the possibility that they might be missing something.

 

[Grenadier]

except that the exercise fundamentally destroys proper punching technique, long before you might get those other benefits.

^^

This.


Besides, most of your punching power comes from the lower body driving the upper body. Exercises that strengthen those parts may very well be more productive.

 

[drop bear]

because most people rely on athleticism and strength without understanding good technique. the problem is, they THINK they understand good technique, and they've had some level of success with what they've been doing, so they are often not open to considering the possibility that they might be missing something.

Yes people should abandon athleticism and strength to gain that advantage of what exactly?

Look you are going to struggle to convince me that being weak is somehow beneficial to technique but give it a go. I am interested to see how this train of thought goes.

 

[James Kovacich]

Yet is a pretty consistent method of training used by people who compete in striking. Why do you think that is?

Boxing aside, most fighters train to do way more than just striking which may or may not call for the weight training. I would not go as far to say that most boxers who are the purist of strikers, rely on weights.

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[Flying Crane]

^^

This.


Besides, most of your punching power comes from the lower body driving the upper body. Exercises that strengthen those parts may very well be more productive.

horse stance training, anyone?

 

[drop bear]

Boxing aside, most fighters train to do way more than just striking which may or may not call for the weight training. I would not go as far to say that most boxers who are the purist of strikers, rely on weights.

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All right I have found competitive strikers who use weighted punching drills.

Find some that are against it.

Let's not just pull these beliefs out of the air.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes people should abandon athleticism and strength to gain that advantage of what exactly?

Look you are going to struggle to convince me that being weak is somehow beneficial to technique but give it a go. I am interested to see how this train of thought goes.

um... looks like you missed something I said earlier...I'll bring it back up so you can take a second look.

i'm not impressed by that video either.

strength training and conditioning are fine, and the fellow in this video is probably an impressive athlete. however, this kind of drill poses a danger of destroying good technique, for the sake of strength and conditioning. Better to keep those exercises separate. then you can develop strength and conditioning without compromising good technique.

I used to do this kind of thing too. I did my kata with wrist and ankle weights. But it was not quality training. it was simply good conditioning, but bad for technique.

 

[Flying Crane]

All right I have found competitive strikers who use weighted punching drills.

Find some that are against it.

Let's not just pull these beliefs out of the air.

I don't care of they are against it or not. I'm just telling you what I know, from the training I've received. As I keep saying, if you see it as beneficial, then keep doing it. For me, no. Tho in the spirit of discussion I'm willing to tell you why I feel that way.

 

[drop bear]

um... looks like you missed something I said earlier...I'll bring it back up so you can take a second look.

So do you rely on strength or not?

Why is strength a reflection of poor technique?

 

[drop bear]

I don't care of they are against it or not. I'm just telling you what I know, from the training I've received. As I keep saying, if you see it as beneficial, then keep doing it. For me, no. Tho in the spirit of discussion I'm willing to tell you why I feel that way.

From what you know as a competitive striker?

 

[Flying Crane]

So do you rely on strength or not?

I rely more heavily on the strength in my legs and torso, to drive my punch. Upper body strength is also useful, but not as important if you understand how to properly drive the punch from your root. If you do not understand how to do that, then upper body strength becomes much more important because the technique defaults to being driven with upper body strength. Yes it can still be effective, but it's not the best way. The upper reaches of power are more limited, and you end up working a lot harder to generate the same kind of power as what you can get from the root.

Why is strength a reflection of poor technique?

It isn't, at least not automatically. When someone doesn't understand how to properly connect his legs and torso to drive the punch, then he ends up driving the punch with upper body strength. He "muscles" the technique. As I keep saying, that can be effective. However, it depends on how strong one is in the arms and shoulders. A big person who is strong and athletic may have great success with it, but a smaller person who is not so strong and athletic may not be able to generate effective power that way. When you can use the lower body to effectively drive your strike, you do not need to be as strong in the upper body, but you can still get the same kind (or even greater) power. In that case, what is truly necessary in terms of the strength of the upper body is just what is required to know that the punch itself is stable and won't collapse or lead to injury when you land it. You don't need the excess strength that you would need to create that power in the first place, because that power comes from the legs and torso, not the arms and shoulders.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

that kind of training is really good for building raw strength and athleticism. But I was not at all impressed with the quality of the punching technique they were showing. And I suspect very strongly that it's largely a result of using the weights. Everything about their posture indicated they were over-compensating for the weights and the detrimental effect that the weights had on posture and body engagement.

Just to be clear, in the following clip, they are not training to "punch". The Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) is a throwing art. The striking is not allowed in the sport. They are using small stone locks (or bricks) to develop "body function" that can be used in throwing.

It's also easy to see that in the following clip, the bricks is not used to develop a "strong punch". It's used to train "how to generate power from the body rotation (in the early stage)" instead of "how to deliver power by the fist (at the ending stage)".

 

[Flying Crane]

From what you know as a competitive striker?

I'm don't compete at all.

The training that I've received places a very (VERY!!) heavy focus on the mechanics of developing a punch that comes from the root, goes up the legs, thru the torso, and out the fist, with full-body connection and power coming from the legs. I've never seen any other method or school that has placed such a heavy focus on this. It's something we look very very closely at. Full-body connection with our strikes is what the entire system is built upon. I've learned to recognize the signs when someone lacks that connection, and I see those signs everywhere, with just about everyone. That includes a lot of people with a lot of training, and people wearing some damn high rank.

 

[Flying Crane]

Just to be clear, in the following clip, they are not training to "punch". The Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) is a throwing art. The striking is not allowed in the sport. They are using small stone locks (or bricks) to develop "body function" that can be used in throwing.

It's also easy to see that in the following clip, the bricks is not used to develop a "strong punch" either. It's used to train "how to generate power from the body rotation (in the early stage)" instead of "how to deliver power by the fist (at the ending stage".

Yes, I am familiar with the stone locks.

In the shuai jiao video, if that's not meant for punching development, I still feel it's not a great exercise. Their body posture speaks volumes about how they are compensating to carry the weight when the arms are extended. When they rotate from one stance to another, they step first and turn the body after. Doing so simply repositions, and does not actually "drive" the turn. Work gets done by driving the turn, not simply repositioning. Work is done in the transition from one stance to another, so it's important for the actual turn to be driven with power. That doesn't happen when the step is made and the body then repositioned.

I also see their bodies leaning in ways that are clearly compensation for holding the weights. That's not natural and can lead to a breakdown in how one moves and how techniques are delivered. It leads to good athleticism, but contributes to other problems and to me, that's not a good exchange.

With the taiji clip, the weight of the brick is preventing him from fully extending. As he gets it out there, gravity kicks in and it gets harder to hold. So extension suffers and body connection suffers and it becomes an arm movement instead of a body movement.

Are you unable to see this in these videos?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With the taiji clip, the weight of the brick is preventing him from fully extending. As he gets it out there, gravity kicks in and it gets harder to hold. So extension suffers and body connection suffers and it becomes an arm movement instead of a body movement.

Are you unable to see this in these videos?

When you do this training, you don't care about "fully extending" but how will you "start" to move.

With the extra weight in your hands, it's much easier to feel the coordination between your

- hip and shoulder,
- knee and elbow,
- foot and hand.

It's the "3 external harmonies" that's important through the training. If you don't use weight, you may not be able to feel the body coordination in such small detail. It's easy to see that when the leg is bending, the arm is bending. When the leg is almost straight, the arm is almost straight too. When the leg movement stops, the arm movement stop at the same time.

 

[Flying Crane]

When you do this training, you don't care about "fully extending" but how will you "start" to move.

With the extra weight in your hands, it's much easier to feel the coordination between your

- hip and shoulder,
- knee and elbow,
- foot and hand.

It's the "3 external harmonies" that's important through the training. If you don't use weight, you may not be able to feel the body coordination in such small detail.

well i do not train taiji anymore because after a dozen or so years i realized i just did't get it. that could be a reflection of the quality of training in taiji that i got, or it could just be a bad match for me, in terms of a system and methodology of training.

however, I disagree with what you are saying, because body mechanics and the effects of gravity on the body remain the same, regardless of system.

 

[James Kovacich]

All right I have found competitive strikers who use weighted punching drills.

Find some that are against it.

Let's not just pull these beliefs out of the air.

No just beliefs. I'm stating the obvious. I doubt very highly that "most" boxers rely on weights for striking power.

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[wingchun100]

I never do weighted drills to help with power. For me, I wanted help with speed because I heard if you can punch fast despite the extra resistance, then it will be even faster without it. Honestly I didn't stick to weighted punching drills long enough to notice any difference in my own punching speed though. LOL But I have heard of people practicing while standing in water for the same reason.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When you do this training, you don't care about "fully extending" but how will you "start" to move.

With the extra weight in your hands, it's much easier to feel the coordination between your

- hip and shoulder,
- knee and elbow,
- foot and hand.

It's the "3 external harmonies" that's important through the training. If you don't use weight, you may not be able to feel the body coordination in such small detail. It's easy to see that when the leg is bending, the arm is bending. When the leg is almost straight, the arm is almost straight too. When the leg movement stops, the arm movement stop at the same time.

And if you use weight to early in your training you depend to much on the external and strength and you end up with a slow Changquan.

I see nothing wrong (or necessary) with this training just it needs to be done at the proper time. But I do not think it is necessary to train in this fashion to be able to feel the body coordination in such small detail. There are small details like opening and closing and sinking and expanding that are better learned without any weight. And although it might be easier to feel the 6 harmonies I am not convinced easier is better in the case of taijiquan.

And yes I have trained my form with weights in the past, but I no longer do because for me it became more of a hindrance to understanding because of my previous MA background