History of Judaism & Israel

[Archangel M]

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

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"Neutral"..."Facts only" reporters with no bias? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

These are the types of people who write the propaganda...I mean "news" that we read. So when the news writes stories about Israel "massacring" poor peace activists, remember this.

 

[Makalakumu]

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

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"Neutral"..."Facts only" reporters with no bias? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

These are the types of people who write the propaganda...I mean "news" that we read. So when the news writes stories about Israel "massacring" poor peace activists, remember this.

Alex, I'll take fallacy for $400. There's at least two here, but whatever.

This would be a legitimate point of view if the US did not support Israel and the winners weren't writing the history books. In fact, I imagine and quite a few of my ancestors who were forced off their lands, rounded up and killed, and/or thrown in camps to rot, might actually agree with this sentiment in a different context.

This is one of the oldest human games on Earth. One more powerful human group forces another group off their land and the latter is pissed about it. So, yeah, I can understand why some people would feel that way and it's not that crazy. Not at all.

 

[Archangel M]

Timeline of Judaism.

Between the years 250 CE and 1948 CE - a period of 1,700 years - Jews have experienced more than eighty expulsions from various countries in Europe - an average of nearly one expulsion every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and seventy-one other countries. Now it looks like we have people who want to expel them from a country that WE (the western world) gave them in the first place.

 

[JDenver]

Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

[yt]RQcQdWBqt14[/yt]

"Neutral"..."Facts only" reporters with no bias? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

These are the types of people who write the propaganda...I mean "news" that we read. So when the news writes stories about Israel "massacring" poor peace activists, remember this.

The history on who 'owns' the land now known as Israel is long and complicated. Of course, Jewish people claim that it's been their land for centuries, which is actually tough to prove outright. Similarly, the Palestinian claims are also difficult.

So Helen Thomas says that the Jewish people have no actual right to claim it as their land and you figure that's an outlandish statement? I certainly don't agree. She's stating what should be an objective fact - that Israel was given to Jewish people and that the outright ownership of that land is highly contentious.

 

[Archangel M]

Uhhh..no. The "go back to Germany or Poland" part is the outlandish part. Considering that there are still people alive who survived the death camps.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are still people alive in my family that remember the "reservations", the re-education centers, and the deprivation of a way of life. May be Israel can play nicer with its natives. Look at new Zealand. It's not perfect, but at least they offer the native some self respect.

 

[Tez3]

How naive. It's the "natives" that want to eliminate Israel. If the enemies of Israel would stop firing rockets/suicide bombers, they'd co-exist.


The radical Arab militants do not want to live in peace. There are plenty Palestinians that would stop fighting. But, leaders of Hamas and other similar groups keep waging war.

The militants are responsible for the deaths of innocents!

Helen Thomas needs to be put out to pasture.

As I said the Jews are the natives of Israel, if people want to take the NZ analogy, imagine that the Maoris had fled around the world when the Europeans invaded then campaigned to get their country back, the UN and others supported them so they were 'given' control back of their own country, does that then make the white European descents the natives.

Like the Maoris many Jews stayed in their homeland and does it make it any the less their homeland because it's been invaded and the invaders left their descendants there? where do people think Jews actually come from then, do they just think it's a religion or do they realise it's a people and their homeland which many were ejected from is Israel?
Do people exiled from their countries due to wars and oppression stop being citizens of their country? the Jews in Israel kept, if you like, the home fires burning for us, they put up with great oppression to keep that land in our hearts and for us to return, don't ever call the Arabs the natives and us the invaders, it simply isn't the truth.

Many Palestinians are actually Jordanians, kicked out of Jordan not even quasi 'natives' of Israel.

 

[Empty Hands]

Oh and the Jews are the natives in Israel, they didn't leave Israel, they were invaded several times by various nations but always there's been Jews in Israel...

According to your own scriptures, the Hebrews (Jews) were invaders as well, whose bloodthirsty tribal God gave the lot of you permission to exterminate the natives and take the country for your own. I don't know if that even happened, but it's something useful to keep in mind. There are no clean hands, no neat lines, no pure saints and no pure demons. Pretending otherwise is self-deluding propaganda. It also stands in the way of coming to some sort of solution which will allow everyone to live without wholesale murder. Almost everyone is an invader, what varies is how recently it happened.

Even the North American aboriginal people that migrated from Eurasia replaced the Clovis people that lived there. I don't know if there was direct conflict between the two, but the timing is suggestive.

 

[Makalakumu]

NZ's natives and neighboring countries havent stated that their goals were to wipe NZ off of the map...and made the attempt...have they?

It never got that far. They broke the tit for a tat violence cycle and the people found ways to live with each other peacefully. A few years ago, I was researching how other countries dealt with their native peoples and this is one of the only examples I could find where this happened. It certainly wasn't perfect, but at least they avoided the fate of so many other peoples. Usually, the case was that the violence cycle would get out of control to the point where the more powerful group would kill/displace/imprison everyone in the other group.

As far as Israel is concerned, unless some kind of arrangement can be made, Israel will eventually be forced to deal harshly with the natives, damn international law. It's pretty bleak, but probably going to be the end result.

 

[Makalakumu]

Many Palestinians are actually Jordanians, kicked out of Jordan not even quasi 'natives' of Israel.

I think that is probably the case for everyone. The Poles came from somewhere else. The natives have as well. That's why, IMO, all of this gets silly after a while. People aren't really tied to the land of their ancestors because usually, when you trace back the generations, people lived somewhere else and called themselves something else.

For example, as in the case of my surname, it comes from Kedrowice, which is located in modern Poland. It used to be part of Prussia. Germany killed all of the original Prussians and displaced them. So, is my surname really German?

 

[Big Don]

Full audio of the radio communications between Israel and the "Peaceful" flotilla.

Shut up! Go back to Auschwitz.

Classy...

We help the arabs go against the US, don't forget 9-11 guys

Real classy...

 

[CanuckMA]

This might be a side issue, but something I've always wondered is how can a religion be a race?

We are not a race. We are a people. It is sometimes hard to define Jews. You are either born a Jew, if your mother was Jewish, or you can convert through Judaism. But a Jew need not practice Judaism, the same as unless you properly convert, you can practice 'Judaism' as much as you like, it does not make you a Jew.

We have a history of over 3,000 years in Israel. A history which Muslims are trying hard to eradicate. One of the focus is the digging under Temple Mount. With no proper supervision and cataloging of finds. Literaly removing Jewish history. One thing Xtians need to wake up to. If Muslims eradicate all proof that the Temple stood in Jerusalem, where does that leave the founding story of Xtianity????

 

[Makalakumu]

How much is a majority in this case?

Look its pretty much cool knowledge that Poland was a paradise for European jewry. Check aiki the info is there too. The book is just an english translation of a common polish history book written by a group of professors in Krakow.

I can get there names when I get home.

 

[elder999]

This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else.

Oh, Jesus. Name two

While most of the Indians in the western part of the U.S. have interesting creation stories that they might cling to (the Hopi emerged from a hole in the earth that was the passage from the "last world.") they- recognize that they did, in fact, come from somewhere else-some of them have even established ties and direct connections with peoples from Siberia and Tibet because of this. More to the point, linguistically, they're all aware of the athabascan language which is part of Inuit, Northwest Indians of Washington and Oregon, and Dine and Apache-in fact, Dine and some Northwest Indians languages are virtually identical, with only a variety of dialectical and idiomatic differences.

As for those of us from the East, my people believed that they came from across the Atlantic-and maybe they did......

Almost all tribes-though there have been people on this continent for more than 30,000 years-have myths that say they came from "somewhere else."

How much is a majority in this case?

Near as I can tell, all of them. There are Jews from all over the world named "Cohen" who have the same alleals(?) that apparently date back to one family from the middle east. Even black Falashas from Ethiopia.

Judaism isn't a ethnicity or a religion; it's a tribe, which is pretty ****in' cool with me.....

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't understand how someone can convert to a religion and be part of a tribe. I don't understand how every Jew can trace their geneology back to Palestine.

Another side issue, but Jeff, I think you are intentionally over looking examples of tribes who claim to have inhabited a land forever. Unless you are saying that the ancestors coming down on Bear Butte counts as coming from some where else.

 

[elder999]

I don't understand how someone can convert to a religion and be part of a tribe. I don't understand how every Jew can trace their geneology back to Palestine.

Dude, dig it, 'cause I've been saying it for a long time, and it's still true:understanding is not a a necessary adjunct to appreciation.

Every Jew can trace their DNA (not geneaology, which is lost to time) back to a few people that we know to have been in the Middle East (Palestine? Babylon? Egypt?) thousands and thousands of years ago-whether they've been in Russia since they can remember or Poland since whenever-that's just a fact. An uncomfortable one for some-because of the implications-but a fact, nonetheless.

There are black Jews from darkest Africa who share DNA with Todd, Mr. CanuckMA and Irene, and a host of people from Poland, Russia, Czechoslavakia and Germany-Spain, Italy, Greece, Morocco, Armenia and Iran as well-that are common for and almost exclusive to Jews.

Another side issue, but Jeff, I think you are intentionally over looking examples of tribes who claim to have inhabited a land forever. Unless you are saying that the ancestors coming down on Bear Butte counts as coming from some where else.

Nope. Not ignoring at all-if they say they came from "the last world," the Pleiades, somewhere else in outer space, or across the Atlantic-it's a myth that says they came from "somewhere else", and, like all myths, one that contains a kernel of truth-that is to say, "somewhere else."

As far as your mention of sacred Bear Butte goes, this also applies-the Lakota, Oglala, Natkota, Cheyenne, Arapahoe and other 60-odd tribes that hold this place sacred have mythologies that say they came to Bear Butte from "somewhere else."

On the other hand, compared to Europeans on the North American continent-or anywhere else-11000 years or more might as well be "forever." :lfao:

Like I said, name two.

 

[CanuckMA]

I don't understand how someone can convert to a religion and be part of a tribe.

Because my tribe has 2 ways to join. Your mother is a Jew. Or you come in through the religion. Once you have made the commitment to join the covenant, you become part of us. In that way, it's akin to citizenship. It is hard to understand because we are both a people and a religion, entertwined as few others are. Our culture, Laws are religion based, but you can be as secular as can be and still be a Jew.

I don't understand how every Jew can trace their geneology back to Palestine.

Elder did a good job of explaining. We're not claiming every Jew. Just a majority. Converts can't. But unless they marry a convert, their kids will share the 'tribal' DNA. Furthermore, Levites and Cohens have even more in common with one another. This day, most Cohanim are safek, in doubt. However, studies have been made that shows that most share a common ancestor. Cohanim are the descendants of Aaron.

 

[Tez3]

Lets get it right, Poland was a 'paradise' compared to other European countries, it wasn't a paradise in that it was a place to live a wonderful life, it meant a place where the freedoms were comparative. Haiti may well seem a paradise to a North Korean or vice versa, doesn't mean either place is great to live in, it depends on who you are and where you live. Jews had to live in ghettos, they were allowed to take employment as tax collectors, bankers etc but they aren't careers that make you friends. Poles didn't convert, they are very staunchly Catholic and have kept that faith even through the Communist years. We all know that history professors in a country that hates and killed a whole bunch of people are going to tell the truth about what happened! Look up and see how many Jews the Poles killed during the war and then look up how many Jews they killed when they'd been released from the concentration camps and went back to their villages, please note how quickly after the Germans rounded up the Jews the Poles moved into Jewish homes. Yes many Poles suffered too, many died fighting the Germans but just as many thought the Germans would rid them of the Jews.
http://radziejow.blogspot.com/2009/09/post-world-war-ii-poland-and.html

Genetics, sadly the fact that we share genes with other Jews means we have particular problems with genetic conditions such as Tay-Sachs which is a devastating illness. Most of us have genetic screening to prevent the passing on of this condition, Crohns disease is prevalent too, my son has it.

In the UK being Jewish is recognised now as a race (tribe) of people.

I'm in off nights, must sleep!

 

[Tez3]

You saw this on BBC. You said so yourself.

"On the BBC news (which is pro Arab btw) it showed the Turkish television report..."

This means that the BBC is reporting on something that apparently happened on Turkish television. You still don't know how many were actually killed.



I just finished a book on Polish history that illustrated the history of Judaism in that country. Basically, it stated that a large number of people converted to Judaism because Jews actually had more rights in Poland then other people. They could own land, they could own banks, they could start businesses. Most of the Jews lived in the towns and people from the countryside would move into the towns and join their community in order to have a better life. There were two large periods of conversion. Between 800 and 1000 when Christianity was first moving into Poland and 1300 to 1500 when the weak Polish state could hardly govern the country, much less organize any persecution.

So, you can assure me that this didn't happen?



Like all people, the Jews eventually came from somewhere else. If you trace the generations back, you'll get to a time where people had to move into the area that would become known as Palestine. The same is true for every people on Earth.

This reads like the argument that many native tribes of North America make where they say they have always been on this land that that their people didn't cross the land bridge and never came from anywhere else. That's bogus too, and they know it deep down and they also know that it's bogusness undermines any special claims on the land they inhabit. It's the same with the Isrealis, except that their claim is even more tenuous and illogical.

The bottom line is this, despite all of the Isreali Nationalist propaganda to the contrary, you have Jews of every race, in all different kinds of countries, who have no link whatsoever to Palestine. This is because Judaism is an idea and has nothing to do with biology or geography. Anyone can be a Jew simply by believing in Judaism. How can you honestly claim that all of these people are natives of Palestine?

How many Jews in Israel can honestly trace their ancestry back to Palestine thousands of years ago? Can you?

You know what? I don't care how many were killed on that boat, nine, nineteen, a hundred even, I really don't care.
It's not because they crossed swords with Israelis, it's simply I'm all 'cared' out. I cannot care for more things that I can cope with. In an hour I'm off to teach my womens class, their husbands, sons or boyfriends are in Afghan, we've had three dead and more than 19 injuried some horrifically. I have friends, some very close over there, I have students over there. I care for my old father who misses my mother terribly. I support charities like Medicin San Frontiere, a fistula hospital in Ehtiopia, I sponsor a Muslim girl in Bangladesh and support other charities I care for. I care for my fellow Brits suffering in Cumbria, some children survived a school bus crash where two pupils were killed only to see people being shot in the street a week after. I watched a programme about girls who are sexually abused in South Africa, 2 of 3 girls there. There's more I'm not going into but don't ask me to actually care about people who stick their heads in the lions mouth and don't ask me to care who's actually right befcause I don't.

Rewrite the history of my people by all means, perhaps I'll write a book rewriting American history or maybe that's been done. Take the word of whoever you want and tell me I'm lying about my own history, whatever, as the teenagers say.


Denying the Native Americans stories seems to me to be justification for everything they had to suffer. Well they didn't really live here forever so hey it's fine to kick them off their land. Perhaps as the white Americans haven't lived there forever they shouldn't have any objections to Mexicans and others coming over the border to settle in America, after all everyone comes from somewhere else so they wouldn't be illegal immigrants would they?

 

[Empty Hands]

Rewrite the history of my people by all means, perhaps I'll write a book rewriting American history or maybe that's been done. Take the word of whoever you want and tell me I'm lying about my own history, whatever, as the teenagers say.

So genetics and religion confers historical knowledge now? How DO you know what happened to Jews in Poland more than 500 years ago?

Denying the Native Americans stories seems to me to be justification for everything they had to suffer.

The Native American creation stories are obviously wrong. So are the Abrahamic creation stories. They do not conform to what we know about the world and our own natural history. That justifies nothing, either way.
"...if the experiment disagrees with the guess, then the guess is wrong." - Richard Feynman