help get karate into the olympics!!

[hogstooth]

No thanks. I do not want to degrade my art to a mere sport for points. I think it would tear down the art by making it nothing more than a game of patty cake.
I am usually pretty tolorant of others views but this would be the end of what we all hold so dear imo. I will never vote for Karate to enter into the olympics!

 

[twendkata71]

Not that this has anything to do with the topic, but hogstooth, what style do you teach/train in? I know several teachers in the Cincinnati area. Just curious. And at this point I would not want karate in the olympics, I do enjoy the occational traditional tournament competition. Old style, without all of the extra padding, maybe just some hand pads,the old WUKO type thin leather.

 

[exile]

Looks to me as if there are a lot of savvy karateka on MT. The references to TKD and how the Olympic push has affected it are I think right on target. I know there's some disagreement about this on the board, but my own take is, the decades-long effort to get TKD into the Olympics had the result of defanging what was a very hard, no-bloody-nonsense combat system and was widely recognized as such.

Here's a question for the Olympics advocates to ponder: why should karate be in the Olympics? Greater recognition and participation? But if you are happy doing karate and progressing in it, just what difference does 'recognition' and increased participation make to you? How are you going to benefit from that? Sports officials will benefit from it, and administrators and so on; and maybe school owners and so on... if TKD is any model here... but how will the individual karateka be better off? I just don't see it.

My guess is that at this point, it's unlikely to happen. And students of karate who value it as a potentially very effective system of self-defense combat should be very glad that that's the case...

 

[hpulley]

It looks like it's all been said but I'll still add my ditto: please keep karate as what it is, please don't dumb it down into a sport with rules that make it useless for self defense.

 

[Blindside]

If they did get karate into the Olympics, I'd only want to see full contact "knockdown" competition styles ala Kyokushin-Kai or the equivalent. No point fighting, no kata, just little bitty white foam pads for the hands and white gis. That I could accept.

I take it back, They can wear helmets if they get this in the Olympics.

Headbutts, knees, and elbows? My kind of fight!

Lamont

 

[exile]

I
Headbutts and elbows? My kind of fight!

Lamont

Look, that is not going to get into the Olympics. Look at what TKD was when it was the combative system of the fearsome ROK Marines and special commando units like the White/Black Tigers, and look what it is now. Why do you think it wound up where it is? Because that's what was needed to ensure that it would be an acceptable Olympic event, heavy on spectacle and low on... um... mortality :uhyeah:

Note what Simon John O'Neill has to say about this in his new book on TKD forms and their combat applications:

An important by-product of the internationalization process and the move towards sport was the need for safety. Westerners would tolerate the possibility of serous injury in training less readily than the original Korean practitioners...[and] Dangerous techniques such as knifehand strikes and —in the case of the WTF—punches to the face were suppressed.​

No martial art will get to the Olympics without being thoroughly declawed and defanged. You're not going to see headbutts and elbows. Old-style TKD had plenty of elbows; they're still there in the forms. But in the arena? Hell, you can't even get a simple punch to register points, most of the time. The head is off-limits for hand techs. It's not going to be any different for karate. Put it like this: any karate that got into the Olympics would be one you'd probably hate having to watch.

 

[hogstooth]

Not that this has anything to do with the topic, but hogstooth, what style do you teach/train in? I know several teachers in the Cincinnati area. Just curious. And at this point I would not want karate in the olympics, I do enjoy the occational traditional tournament competition. Old style, without all of the extra padding, maybe just some hand pads,the old WUKO type thin leather.

Kobayashi Ryu. I also trained in Matsubayashi ryu for years in Loveland Ohio with Terry Peters Sensei until I left for the Marine Corps. I presently teach out of my house in Milford Ohio. Rent got out of control and my basement is only about 50 sq.ft. smaller than the place I was renting and it has a 9 ft cieling and its free (well sort of free) so it works out pretty well.

 

[twendkata71]

I know Terry and others at the loveland dojo. I used to train with James Driggs kyoshi, and Frank Grant Hanshi. That was twenty years ago. Did you train on Okinawa while in the Marine's?

 

[hogstooth]

I lost touch with Terry when I joined the Marines. Do you still keep in touch with him? I would love to see him again. I know Hanshi Grant but that was years ago when I met him. I think 1982 but he wasn't a hanshi back then.
My father trained directly under Katsuya Miyahira Sensei while in the service. My father took me to Okinawa when I was 10 and I got the pleasure of training under him with my father over summer break. I never got the chance to return while in the Corps but my father had made a few pilgrimages over the years until he had his neck injury five years ago. He still is sharp as a tack and very knowledgable but can't train anymore. Had his neck fused because of slipped disks.
Did you no Sensei Gutermuth? I hope the spelling is right. It's been along time. She used to get mad at me because I wouldn't hit her. She always said it was alright but I could never bring myself to hit her.
Boy that brings back old memories. If you still stay in touch with Peters Sensei or know how to get in touch with him I would really like to see him again.
It's good to know there are others out there so close that have trained in the same or similar arts.
God Bless.

 

[twendkata71]

No unfortunately I have not kept in touch. I am not sure if he still teaches in Loveland. If so he is no longer affiliated with the WSKF. Or is not listed in their current dojo. I met Terry originally at a camp hosted by Master Driggs for the WSKF at his dojo in Stewart, Oh.

 

[Grenadier]

The head is off-limits for hand techs. It's not going to be any different for karate. Put it like this: any karate that got into the Olympics would be one you'd probably hate having to watch.

Going to disagree wtih this.

The USA-NKF is the governing body for the USOC, when it comes to Karate, and using their rules, you'll see punches and strikes to the head. Given that the WKF follows virtually identical rules, I see no reason why such a ruleset couldn't be applied to the Olympic Games as well.

All-out face contact, of course, isn't allowed, but they do allow a fair amount of contact to the face area, and people do get popped by backfists / ridge hands on the side of the head as well (anywhere there is non-facial hair).

If they included empty hand kata as well as kobudo competition, in addition to the usual kumite, why not? After all, gymnastics and swimming have multiple events in which the athletes can compete.

I enjoyed watching the USA-NKF events this year (albeit on video, since I couldn't go there in person this year).

 

[hogstooth]

No unfortunately I have not kept in touch. I am not sure if he still teaches in Loveland. If so he is no longer affiliated with the WSKF. Or is not listed in their current dojo. I met Terry originally at a camp hosted by Master Driggs for the WSKF at his dojo in Stewart, Oh.

No he isn't teaching in Loveland anymore. When I got out of the Corps I went back to see if he was still there and the dojo was closed down and didn't have his number any more. I was hoping since you said you knew him you might have a way to get intouch with him. There was one other Matsubayashi Ryu instructor down off of the western hills viaduct ( can't remember his name) but after meeting him I decided to pass on training with him and there were some sort of charges against him. I think rape but can't remember. He had the same patch but don't know if he was in the WSKF or not.
Any way it was nice walking down memory lane. Really wish you had a way to get in touch with Peters Sensei. I wonder if I contact Hanshi Grant if he would have information on him? Might be worth a try. Thanks for your help anyway. God Bless.

 

[Martin h]

Going to disagree wtih this.

The USA-NKF is the governing body for the USOC, when it comes to Karate, and using their rules, you'll see punches and strikes to the head. Given that the WKF follows virtually identical rules, I see no reason why such a ruleset couldn't be applied to the Olympic Games as well.

USA-NKF is member of WKF, as national organizatory body.
While they do have a specific USA-NKF ruleset, this is just the local adaption of the standard WKF rules.
The kobudo rules are a local invention tough. They are not part of WKF.

All-out face contact, of course, isn't allowed, but they do allow a fair amount of contact to the face area, and people do get popped by backfists / ridge hands on the side of the head as well (anywhere there is non-facial hair).

WKF allow hand strikes to the face/head with closed fists, but not open hand techniques. They are strictly banned.
Contact is skintouch. Although skintouch can be quite hard, the general idea is if you injure the opponent or knock him out/down, you get warned or disqualified.

Under the "new" (now 10+years old) WKF rules, kicks are scored higher points (higher for headkicks) than punches. So kicks, especially high kicks are seen more than punches nowdays. A sad development, made for audience appeal. But face punches ARE allowed.

If they included empty hand kata as well as kobudo competition, in addition to the usual kumite, why not? After all, gymnastics and swimming have multiple events in which the athletes can compete.

No.
The rules that are under considerations are WKF kumite and MAYBE kata (I have to check, but I dont think so) rules. Administrated by WKF as international organizatory body. No kobudo, no kumite rules variations. Nothing. Strict WKF as it is done today. Nothing else.
If some other karate sport (lets say knockdown karate rules for example) should want acceptance by IOC, it must first be accepted and administrated by the WKF as it is now the international karate organization recognized by IOC.. and unlike wrestling, WKF has no interest in housing several types of rules sets under its roof.

 

[twendkata71]

That is true. Most likely if karate did ever get accepted by the IOC to be included in the Olympics, if would be for Kumite. I doubt they would have kata, eventhough that I would like to see. There would be no Kobudo. There is no Kobudo in WKF world competitions. You only see kobudo on the national level,i.e. USANKF competitions. If you go overseas, you usually don't see kobudo included either, like at the EKF, or KUGB.