Have you become too big?

Hand Sword

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Recently I've had a conversation with a teacher. He was under the impression that people cross train or take up another style to study because they "have outgrown their art." I was curious to those of you that do the above. Do/ did you feel like you have outgrown your art? Is it possible to outgrow an art, considering how long it takes to truly become an expert or master the material?
 

Shotgun Buddha

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I suppose that depends on whether or not its a persons objective to "master" it or not. Some people could only be looking for a certain level of proficiency in it, or only gain enjoyment out of it up to a certain point.
For example I enjoy learning small joint manipulation, and practising it, but its not something I could devote myself to completely.
 
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Hand Sword

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I get that. I meant it in a way like, you've studied Kempo for years, but, for some reason you go to another style and take it up. Is it because you feel like you've outgrown your style? Is that possible? According to this gentlemen, that's why people do it. They just "outgrrew" their system. I was just wondering if others felt or feel this way.
 

Jade Tigress

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I get that. I meant it in a way like, you've studied Kempo for years, but, for some reason you go to another style and take it up. Is it because you feel like you've outgrown your style? Is that possible? According to this gentlemen, that's why people do it. They just "outgrrew" their system. I was just wondering if others felt or feel this way.

Heh, Im sure its possible that some people feel like that. Just cause an art still has more to offer, it doesn't mean it has it to offer to you, or that you're interested in what its offering.


It looks like we're getting crossed signals here. I understand completely SB's interpretation. However, even though it's possible to outgrow your art according to your personal goals, I think HS means "outgrowing" as feeling like you've learned absolutely all you can about the art you train and feel you have to move on solely because of that fact. Is it possible to master every aspect of your art so throughly, that the only way you can continue training martial arts at all is to take up another style?

Looking at it that way, I doubt it. There are masters who train their art until they are physically incapable, or until the day they die. If you don't use it, you lose it.

I think people change styles today for many reasons, this is the West, we have "short" attention spans. We're always looking for something more, or we have reached our goals in training and want something new now.

I don't know of anyone who has said/thought, "Well, I've learned and mastered absolutely every aspect of this art. Guess I need to find something else to train now or be done with it."
 

Shotgun Buddha

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It looks like we're getting crossed signals here. I understand completely SB's interpretation. However, even though it's possible to outgrow your art according to your personal goals, I think HS means "outgrowing" as feeling like you've learned absolutely all you can about the art you train and feel you have to move on solely because of that fact. Is it possible to master every aspect of your art so throughly, that the only way you can continue training martial arts at all is to take up another style?

Looking at it that way, I doubt it. There are masters who train their art until they are physically incapable, or until the day they die. If you don't use it, you lose it.

I think people change styles today for many reasons, this is the West, we have "short" attention spans. We're always looking for something more, or we have reached our goals in training and want something new now.

I don't know of anyone who has said/thought, "Well, I've learned and mastered absolutely every aspect of this art. Guess I need to find something else to train now or be done with it."

Im not sure its genuinely possible to master something completely. There's almost always something else to learn or figure out about it. I'd say its mostly people feeling they've mastered enough. Or importantly, they may feel unable to master any more? People do occasionally reach plateau's in their training. Maybe they've grown as far as they can in that art?
 

Jade Tigress

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Im not sure its genuinely possible to master something completely. There's almost always something else to learn or figure out about it.

Exactly. :asian:

I think that's what HS is getting at regarding the meaning of the comment made to him by that teacher.

HS? Clarify?
 

terryl965

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I do not feel like I have out grown mt art just that we all need to grow for our art. So without looking else where the Art we love cannot grow so in essence we are killing ourself.
 

morph4me

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I think it depends on what you mean by "outgrow their art". If you mean that you have learned everything there is to know about an art, then I don't believe that. But, if you mean that you have learned and become proficient enough to recognize the weaknesses and go looking for something to supplement those weaknesses and add to their toolbox, I can agree with that.
 

MJS

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Recently I've had a conversation with a teacher. He was under the impression that people cross train or take up another style to study because they "have outgrown their art." I was curious to those of you that do the above. Do/ did you feel like you have outgrown your art? Is it possible to outgrow an art, considering how long it takes to truly become an expert or master the material?


Interesting question. :) IMHO, I would say it depends on the person. Someone could study an art for 20yrs and think that they have come to the end of the road, but is that person really looking for things as hard as they could? This past Wednesday, I was taking a private lesson with one of my Arnis instructors. We were going over a particular drill, one that each of us has done many times. Yet, he showed me something that I never 'saw' before. He said that even he didn't really notice this subtle move, until he was watching an old tape of Prof. Presas. Prof. Presas never went into detail with this move, but it was something that he did himself, every time he did this particular drill. Its up to the students to catch it. Difference is, Prof. Presas was so good, he didn't make the change obvious, again, unless you were really watching. Its funny because sometimes you're working something, and that light bulb goes off and it clicks!

Should it have been something that was taught from the beginning? Some say say, and some say no. IMO, I don't think that a teacher should spoon feed everything to their students. Its up to them to have a base, and build and look for things off of that.

So, back to the original question. It depends on the student. I don't cross train because I've outgrown my art, I do it, because there is so much out there. Its like going to the buffet table. So many different foods, and you want to try them all. Of course, if you did, you'd probably get sick, so you pick a few things that you like. Are there weapon disarms in Kenpo? Of course. I study the FMAs because for me, I feel that if you want to really expand your knowledge on something, you may need to go to the source. My study of the FMAs has made me look at my Kenpo differently. I have 2 ways of doing something, so now I can compare differences, similarities, etc. But I didn't and won't give up Kenpo.
 

Xue Sheng

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First to becoming a "master" of any art. I honestly do not think that is possible. To me it means you know all there is to know about a given style and as soon as you believe that you and your art stop growing... both become stagnant... learning stops

Recently I've had a conversation with a teacher. He was under the impression that people cross train or take up another style to study because they "have outgrown their art." I was curious to those of you that do the above. Do/ did you feel like you have outgrown your art? Is it possible to outgrow an art, considering how long it takes to truly become an expert or master the material?

Outgrow my art.... no I do not think I can outgrow any art. But I do think that after time in training any art you may realize that it may not be that art for you.... you do not fit it any longer. There is still a lot to learn, you just don't feel it fit you any longer... its not your style any longer kind of thing. I suppose that could be thought of as outgrowing but to me outgrowing means you grown beyond it, you have learned it all and there is nothing left but then I do not think that is possible in any style or art.

I guess it might be easier to understand what I am trying to say by example, I sometimes wonder if my strange way of thinking makes any sense in writing.

Say I trained Bagauzhang for 5, 10 or 15 years and I had even reached some level of skill. But then I realize that I simply no longer have the drive to train it, but I also realize I have a lot left to learn so I keep forcing myself to train, and/or somewhere along the way I saw or briefly trained or decided to cross train Long Fist and I begin to feel like that is what martial arts is to me. Not that I have learned all I can form Bagua or that Bagua is inferior just that to me it is not the best CMA for me. Could be I have finally found my art could be I need a break from Bagua to actually learn more about myself and Bagua and I will return after some time in Long Fist. Could be after weeks, months, years of thinking I'm a Bagua guy that I realize I'm a Changquan (Long Fist) guy
 

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I think one possible motivation behind it could be that learning is a curve. And you reach a point that to get to the next 'level' (whatever that is) may be difficult. Not just difficult to do... but maybe even difficult to understand where it is or how you get there. You think you've 'outgrown' your art simply because you can't see what more there is to your art.

In the beginning, you learn to kick, and as you progress, the more you work the better it gets. You get stronger and you learn better body mechanics. A weeks work of work and study brings a fifty percent increase in power. Cool. But eventually a weeks worth of work only brings maybe twenty five percent..or ten percent. Eventually you reach a point where it takes months of hard work to get a five percent increase in power. Not just mechanical strength gained in repetition but mechanical efficiency gained from better understanding.

At some point, a person may reach the point where they simply cannot see where the next five percent increase in power will come from. Or alternatively, it may reach a point where getting that extra five percent may not matter to you if you are going to need to take a year of study and work to get it.

And at that point you may feel, or believe, that you've reached the end of your art, or at least your exploration of it. If you cannot see the next step, you may not know it's even there or how to reach it. It may be easier to start off with something new if for no other reason that the rate of progress now becomes... reasonable to you
 

mrhnau

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I think it depends on what you mean by "outgrow their art". If you mean that you have learned everything there is to know about an art, then I don't believe that. But, if you mean that you have learned and become proficient enough to recognize the weaknesses and go looking for something to supplement those weaknesses and add to their toolbox, I can agree with that.
I'll agree with you on this. While mastering an art might take a lifetime, finding holes or gaps that require another art to fill can happen in a reasonable time frame. Otherwise, why would anyone crosstrain at all? Why not just stick with one art? Each has its own unique strengths and weaknesses.
 

kidswarrior

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Recently I've had a conversation with a teacher. He was under the impression that people cross train or take up another style to study because they "have outgrown their art." I was curious to those of you that do the above. Do/ did you feel like you have outgrown your art? Is it possible to outgrow an art, considering how long it takes to truly become an expert or master the material?
Can only speak to my personal experience, so here it is. I grew tired of pounding it out 2-3 times a week in some hardcore, external arts, after 5-8 years (was cross training at the time, also, so that increases exponentially). So after 2nd black in a couple of arts, scaled the group class activity way back, and focused more on what I could/should understand/learn/be able to do, long term. Part of this is working with more senior people, part of it is in teaching, part of it is just paying attention when practicing what I already *know* and discovering new things, as MJS said.

I guess an analogy might be, I sprinted to black and a little beyond, then settled into a steady jog. I see my MA study as a lifelong *run* that won't end until I'm too infirm to move anymore (which hopefully I don't, but life happens :)) And sprinting a marathon is just not possible for me.

Anyway, this is how I see it. BTW, please notice I never said I have or would *outgrow* anything. I see that as implying reaching the highest plateua, and leveling out. Not in my lifetime. :)
 

MJS

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I think it depends on what you mean by "outgrow their art". If you mean that you have learned everything there is to know about an art, then I don't believe that. But, if you mean that you have learned and become proficient enough to recognize the weaknesses and go looking for something to supplement those weaknesses and add to their toolbox, I can agree with that.

Interesting point when you said weaknesses. I've often spoke of the same things. For example...the subject of grappling/ground fighting in Kenpo. IMHO, from what I have seen, there is little to none. Therefore, I was always saying that its important to cross train in a grappling art, to supplement what was lacking in Kenpo.

I would, more times than not, be met with people saying that its not that the art is lack or that there is a weakness in the art, but instead in my Kenpo. In other words, they're basically saying don't lump my training in with the rest of the people.

On the other hand, I don't like to kid myself. Why should I try to convince myself that something is there, when it either isn't or its limited? This is why I said that if someone wants to expand on something, you may need to go to the source. If I really want to understand and improve my Kenpo on the ground, I'm going to seek out someone who grapples. By working with those people, we can see for ourselves, whats going to work/not work, and how to make it better. :)
 

IcemanSK

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I think sometimes "outgrowing our style" can be just a product of our American culture. Here we have just about anything one would want to do. If something gets a bit old, we trade it for something else. Art class, bowling, MA, church, hiking, etc. I think it's often less that we "outgrew" our Art, but that we got bored & saw something that looked "better." Here in L.A., something new comes around about once a week. It's the "new, better, different, must-have" thing of the moment.

In a rural setting where most of the traditional Arts came from, it was more natural to want to perfect that Art over a lifetime because that society didn't 1000 other things to pull one's attention away.

American society lives life at such a fast pace, it's has it's own built in desire to "outgrow" anything that we do.
 

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Hi All,
I can't really say that I have outgrown my previous art. (Shotokan) I have however, outgrown a couple of dojos due to politics and need of better instruction, different type of training ect....

My old art has never left me it is still a part of me blended within my current style. I just keep on expanding my knowledge and learning other styles not due to any mastery on my part, boredom or anything of that nature. I just have a rabid hunger to learn new things and take on new challenges. Isn't that what it's all about?

It's just my nature.:idunno:
 

kidswarrior

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I think one possible motivation behind it could be that learning is a curve. And you reach a point that to get to the next 'level' (whatever that is) may be difficult. Not just difficult to do... but maybe even difficult to understand where it is or how you get there. You think you've 'outgrown' your art simply because you can't see what more there is to your art.

In the beginning, you learn to kick, and as you progress, the more you work the better it gets. You get stronger and you learn better body mechanics. A weeks work of work and study brings a fifty percent increase in power. Cool. But eventually a weeks worth of work only brings maybe twenty five percent..or ten percent. Eventually you reach a point where it takes months of hard work to get a five percent increase in power. Not just mechanical strength gained in repetition but mechanical efficiency gained from better understanding.

At some point, a person may reach the point where they simply cannot see where the next five percent increase in power will come from. Or alternatively, it may reach a point where getting that extra five percent may not matter to you if you are going to need to take a year of study and work to get it.

And at that point you may feel, or believe, that you've reached the end of your art, or at least your exploration of it. If you cannot see the next step, you may not know it's even there or how to reach it. It may be easier to start off with something new if for no other reason that the rate of progress now becomes... reasonable to you
Yeah, the old *Diminishing Returns* idea. Good point.
 

morph4me

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Interesting point when you said weaknesses. I've often spoke of the same things. For example...the subject of grappling/ground fighting in Kenpo. IMHO, from what I have seen, there is little to none. Therefore, I was always saying that its important to cross train in a grappling art, to supplement what was lacking in Kenpo.

I would, more times than not, be met with people saying that its not that the art is lack or that there is a weakness in the art, but instead in my Kenpo. In other words, they're basically saying don't lump my training in with the rest of the people.

On the other hand, I don't like to kid myself. Why should I try to convince myself that something is there, when it either isn't or its limited? This is why I said that if someone wants to expand on something, you may need to go to the source. If I really want to understand and improve my Kenpo on the ground, I'm going to seek out someone who grapples. By working with those people, we can see for ourselves, whats going to work/not work, and how to make it better. :)

Maybe instead of recognizing the weaknesses I should have said, explore the stregnths of other arts ;). If you're going to get better, you have to train with people who are better and/or more skilled than yourself, and that number of people should decrease in your chosen style the longer you stay with it because your skill level should increase and because of attrition, so you may have to look elsewhere if you're going to continue to improve.
 

kidswarrior

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Have you become too big? By the way, when I first saw this I thought yoiu were picking on us plus size guys. In which case I was going to spread the welath. I mean, c'mon, there's morph4me, Kempo 14, and... :rofl: Just kidding!!!!!!!!! Guys, you know I love ya. :asian:
 

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