Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Gnarlie]

They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.

That might be easier said than done. There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level. The chances of closing on someone with that level of anticipatory skill and agility drops to almost nothing unless they choose to let you in. I speak from experience - jamming is a favourite strategy for me, but there's just no way close without a written invitation. The slip back and counter game is just too strong and they can just do it forever, circling. Grabbing a leg doesn't help either it seems, just earns you a foot in the face.



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[Tez3]

That might be easier said than done. There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level. The chances of closing on someone with that level of anticipatory skill and agility drops to almost nothing unless they choose to let you in. I speak from experience - jamming is a favourite strategy for me, but there's just no way close without a written invitation. The slip back and counter game is just too strong and they can just do it forever, circling. Grabbing a leg doesn't help either it seems, just earns you a foot in the face.



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However, just because there are TKD Olympians doesn't make TKD the only type of martial art that can kick peoples ****. It doesn't mean either that Olympian TKD competitors are unbeatable by anyone else, there is a whiff of elitism coming in when people start saying that some people are invincible. I would put someone like Ian Freeman up against a TKD Olympian and it wouldn't be the latter who prevailed, not because he does MMA btw but because of the sheer ferocity of his way of fighting which I have witnessed first hand on several occasions in training.
No one is invincible, hard to beat of course but not unbeatable.

 

[Gnarlie]

Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite. Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.

 

[Tez3]

Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite. Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.

I think the problem is that people see the Olympic TKD as just being a kicking competition, a good one but still just kicking, they don't see it as competitive 'fighting', it's a sort of glorified shin kicking competition. That the competitors can do more is either overlooked or unknown, we don't know that they can do more simply because we never see it. People can only judge Olympic TKD by what they see and that's kicking each other, well, actually taking turns to kick each other. There are problems when the non elite, non Olympic TKD try to just kick while waiting their turn!

 

[Gnarlie]

I think the problem is that people see the Olympic TKD as just being a kicking competition, a good one but still just kicking, they don't see it as competitive 'fighting', it's a sort of glorified shin kicking competition. That the competitors can do more is either overlooked or unknown, we don't know that they can do more simply because we never see it. People can only judge Olympic TKD by what they see and that's kicking each other, well, actually taking turns to kick each other. There are problems when the non elite, non Olympic TKD try to just kick while waiting their turn!

I sort of agree...IMO it's not a great spectator sport because you sort of have to be a TKD player to understand what it is that you're looking at and appreciate the skill - sometimes I think it just looks like nothing is going on, or just scrappy when two players are jamming each other's game.

It's certainly more than trading blows, and it definitely constitutes full contact fighting, albeit within a limited rule set. Although even when that ruleset is removed, these elite people can still be hard to get to even for someone who has experience with sweeps, shoots, punching and so on. I wish that were easier for people outside the art to experience and see, but it's really only evident at the top of the game.

I've had similar experiences trying to get at high level Krav and BJJers, too. Just too much experience, and no way through. You have had this experience too, right? Just someone who seems bullet proof at the time?

 

[WaterGal]

Well it would depend who they are going up against, a friend of mine asked me to spar with his TKD black just to teach them there's other ways of sparring really, I got in close and kicked low, punched and did take downs. They weren't used to it, there was no 'distance' between us to do their kicks. I knew they could kick high and fast so I made sure I wasn't in a position where they could do that.

They can kick the heck out of people...if they are allowed to, you just don't give them that chance, common sense.

Was his TKD student an Olympic competitor? If so, wow! That's really astonishing. If not.... I mean, I'm seriously not disparaging your skill at all, but I'm not talking about ordinary TKDists who do Olympic-style sparring. I'm talking about the best in the world. It's the same with any type of sport fighting, I think. Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.

 

[Tez3]

Was his TKD student an Olympic competitor? If so, wow! That's really astonishing. If not.... I mean, I'm seriously not disparaging your skill at all, but I'm not talking about ordinary TKDists who do Olympic-style sparring. I'm talking about the best in the world. It's the same with any type of sport fighting, I think. Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.

No, they competed for the Army in Tri service comps. the whole point of training with them, as asked by the instructor, was they knew no other way of sparring and wanted to be able to counter other techniques, they weren't used to people coming in close, they weren't used to being punched etc etc. It's wasn't amazing, it was a training session.
Which has nothing to do with the OP, which is about ordinary TKD being damaged by the Olympics, my point is that when ordinary people train TKD and do it the Olympic style it doesn't show TKD in a great light so yes to a certain extent the Olympics have damaged the ordinary TKD.
It's obvious that professional athletes are going to be better than 'ordinary' athletes but that wasn't my point.

 

[Gnarlie]

I think it really depends what else that person has been exposed to practising outside of the Olympic sparring format. The techniques outside of Olympic style sparring cover dealing with punches, kicks shoots etc in a pretty brutal and straightforward way; some clubs choose to solely focus on sport, and therefore those non-sport elements are perhaps weaker in practitioners at those clubs. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Olympic Taekwondo has damaged Taekwondo in general, because the non-sport syllabus still exists and is fully practised at many clubs.

From an outsider's perspective, if all one sees is sport, one may reach the conclusion that sport is all there is.

This says a lot: in the last few years, I've been joining various group sessions, seminars and training outside of Taekwondo, for example Krav Maga, Boxing, BJJ, Karate and so on. In any of that, I have still yet to see a technique or principle that was completely new to me, one that I had not already been exposed to via Taekwondo. Sure, in the BJJ group there's more depth in the groundwork, but the basic principles were not new to me, I already had them from Taekwondo, and the same with the other groups. The style of practice differs, but the techniques and principles are similar.

I'm not comparing Taekwondo to those other ways, or saying that it is better. Just that there's more to TKD than sport, and time spent in the art brings exposure to plenty of that if one is willing to seek it out. It's not an art for people who want to be spoon fed.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There's a world of difference between the average BB and the Olympic level.

However, just because there are TKD Olympians doesn't make TKD the only type of martial art that can kick peoples ****.

Absolutely, but the elite are just that - elite. Too much for little me. And way more than Olympic TKD detractors might realise.

I've had similar experiences trying to get at high level Krav and BJJers, too. Just too much experience, and no way through. You have had this experience too, right? Just someone who seems bullet proof at the time?

Changing the ruleset from what you train for is going to put you at a disadvantage, but a world-class athlete is still going to be incredibly skilled. For example, a regular BJJ black belt could probably take on a regular boxer pretty well, but I don't think I'd bet on them against Mike Tyson at his peak.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter whether you're talking about TKD, Boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA, Wrestling, or Judo. Once you get to the people who are the best in the world, the gap between them and even the best amateur hobbyist is huge.

Consider the following hierarchy:

Average martial art hobbyist: Average degree of talent. Trains at whatever school is available locally, probably 3-6 hours per week.
Dedicated martial art hobbyist: Average talent. Might travel extra for a better school. Trains 8-12 hours per week, may supplement training with seminars, books, and videos.
Serious professional: Likely above average physical gifts. May relocate for preferred gym. May train 20-30 hours per week. Trains with higher intensity than most hobbyists.
World-class professional/Olympic Athlete: Extreme genetic gifts. Incredible work ethic. Trains full time (40+ hours per week) with the best coaches, physical trainers, nutritionists, and sports doctors on the planet. Regularly competes against others at that same level.

Speaking as a dedicated hobbyist who has been training martial arts for 33 years, I am very aware of where I stand in comparison to the people at the top.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sure, in the BJJ group there's more depth in the groundwork, but the basic principles were not new to me, I already had them from Taekwondo, and the same with the other groups.

Okay, I'm curious. What basic groundwork principles did you learn in TKD?

 

[Gnarlie]

Tony, you have the kind of moderate and even handed approach I can only aspire to, and of course you are right. I'm firmly in the dedicated hobbyist block too.

 

[Gnarlie]

Okay, I'm curious. What basic groundwork principles did you learn in TKD?

Initially: Breakfalling in all directions. Takedowns and counters. Escape and stand up. Quick.

Intermediate phase: Controlling a grounded opponent to a limb control post takedown from standing or kneeling.

Later: Controlling a grounded opponent on the ground with them. Pins on the ground (informally and without much structure) and hierarchy of positions and typical counters, basic mount escapes and reversals, bridging, striking from your back and the mount. Dealing with a standing opponent from the ground and ways to cover up for multiple opponents.


Not heavily emphasised in the testing syllabus, but definitely there at various seminars and training sessions. Enough to bring home and practice for tweaking next time. Basically practising control but with the aim of getting up and away if possible.

 

[Tez3]

The majority of our students are professional fighters both in their day jobs and their martial arts, both involve fighting for money Their fitness and capacity for training is amazing.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I believe it has ruined the art, but it's partly General Chois fault. The KKW style was originally going to have a different name, but it was Choi who advocated to label it Tae kwon do as well.. If it were not for his instance, Taekwondo would never be associated with WTF,/KKW, since it would be named something else.

 

[Gnarlie]

Inter-faction backbiting and style bashing between martial artists who should have more restraint has done more to damage the reputation of Taekwondo than Olympic Taekwondo ever could.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I believe it has ruined the art, but it's partly General Chois fault. The KKW style was originally going to have a different name, but it was Choi who advocated to label it Tae kwon do as well.. If it were not for his instance, Taekwondo would never be associated with WTF,/KKW, since it would be named something else.

You really need to brush up on your history if you want to avoid looking foolish.
General Choi was ONE of the people who supported the name Taekwondo for the unified art. Not the only one. Nor is it documented who first suggested the name.
But if anything was "as well", it would be the ITF, since the name was used first by the KTA. A couple decades before the KKW was founded, incidentally.


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[Laplace_demon]

You really need to brush up on your history if you want to avoid looking foolish.
General Choi was ONE of the people who supported the name Taekwondo for the unified art. Not the only one. Nor is it documented who first suggested the name.
But if anything was "as well", it would be the ITF, since the name was used first by the KTA. A couple decades before the KKW was founded, incidentally.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Yes, he was one of them. Am I not correct in that it was ruled with a majority of one vote?

 

[ETinCYQX]

EDIT: This thread really doesn't need my help.

 

[Tez3]

I don't really care who Gen. Choi is, I don't have any 'preference' for any 'style' of TKD but was enjoying an interesting discussion here. It's getting tedious that whenever TKD is being discussed, the same person comes on having a pop at certain 'styles' and certain personalities. Deja moo again...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, he was one of them. Am I not correct in that it was ruled with a majority of one vote?

Not that I know of. The records do not show how many votes were cast for what. Or at least, none that I've ever seen. If you have an actual voting history, please procide the source.
Otherwise, this statement becomes just another in the category of "mythical father" claims.