Hapkido Techniques compared to Aikijujutsu/Aikido?
- Thread starter Doomx2001
- Start date
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I can't help you that much. I saw two men demonstrate Aikijujutsu but it was about 20 years ago. My recollection was that there were some similarities.
I have a co-worker who studied Aikido in the past. He and I have discussed some techniques, many of which he had learned in Aikido. Unfortunately, I don't know their names in either Korean or Japanese. When I learned Hapkido, my GM used English names for all we did.
But you are asking a rather broad question that is hard to answer, since most practitioners, unless they have studied both systems, would not be likely to know what techniques are the same, unless they just stumbled onto something on the internet or in during a visit to the other system's schools. And if I knew some, I would probably on be able to direct to youtube or something else on the internet.
Sorry if that isn't helpful to you. But maybe you could narrow your question a little, or rephrase it?
I have a co-worker who studied Aikido in the past. He and I have discussed some techniques, many of which he had learned in Aikido. Unfortunately, I don't know their names in either Korean or Japanese. When I learned Hapkido, my GM used English names for all we did.
But you are asking a rather broad question that is hard to answer, since most practitioners, unless they have studied both systems, would not be likely to know what techniques are the same, unless they just stumbled onto something on the internet or in during a visit to the other system's schools. And if I knew some, I would probably on be able to direct to youtube or something else on the internet.
Sorry if that isn't helpful to you. But maybe you could narrow your question a little, or rephrase it?
OP
OP
Doomx2001
Green Belt
The reason I want to compare the two is because Hapkido comes from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. I wanted to see what GM Choi and his students changed Aiki techniques making Hapkido more distinct from Aikijujutsu until it became more of its own style. Also, most schools don't have names for the Hapkido techniques they teach, but rather number them. By comparing techniques to Aikijujutsu, I could research how they differ, how they are the same, and learn more of the history of the Korean martial art of Hapkido. The following is an example:
In Hapkido there is a technique where you twist the wrist to the outside to throw a person (although it is meant as a wrist break). According to Master Choe in his book 'The Korean Martial Art of Self Defense Hapkido', he refers to the technique as 'Boo-Chae' (fan). In Aikijujutsu/Aikido this is called Kotegaeshi.
Here is MuSool Hapkido wrist throw(Boo-Chae or as it is known in Hankido 'Gwan Jeol Gi Beop':
Here is Aikido wrist throw (kotegaeshi):
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iron_ox
Black Belt
Please don't take this the wrong way, but all of your sources here are going to give you false information about Hapkido. I won't get into Choe. You can find out quite a bit about him elsewhere, needless to say, stop buying his material. And why are you selecting those two videos apparently randomly to compare Hapkido/Daito-Ryu. Did you do any reading about the Hapkido organization? From their own web site they are suspect. And why not look for Daito-ryu video?? Aikido is quite different, even though its roots are DR.
I think what you are doing is noble, but comparing random Youtube videos is not really "research". And comparing technique will not really give you any clues as to the History of the art.
Now if you are independently wealthy, you could train with a student of Choi Dojunim, or at a dojang that is directly affiliated with him. If not, then read all the material that is already out there relating to Choi Dojunim, continue to ask pertinent questions and remember that some people have worked a lifetime to accumulate knowledge and its not always a matter of regurgitating it verbatim in a forum...
Again, I'm not trying to be negative, but start with apples and apples if you want to do video work and see where that take you.
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Hapkido as you would expect shares many techniques with Aikido since both are descendants of Aikijujutsu, and there are only so many ways to bend a joint. However you will probably find almost as much difference in exactly how techniques are done between Hapkido schools as you do between Hapkido/Aikido/Daito Ryu, especially if you use Youtube as as source where most videos are likely to be overly dramatic demo versions of the techniques.
What I have found is that variations of Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Shihonage, Sankyo, Koshinage and Iriminage are all present in our Hapkido curriculum, we don't use Korean names for them. Those form the basis for many techniques in all 3 arts and the differences are variations on the techniques. Aikido for example seems to use the term Koshinage for any hip throw and Iriminage for a wide variety of 'clothesline' techniques. I'm sure there are many other common techniques, those are just core locks or throws that I've noticed are more or less the same.
Someone else has done similar research for Aikido that you might be interested in, he found that 82% of Aikido correlates with Aikijutsu, I don't recall if it's Ok to link to other sites here so do a Google serach for Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza and you should find it.
It's not a simple project, I don't think you can really do it justice with just Youtube and without experience in at least one of the styles. Get Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo, Korean Hapkido: Ancient Art of Masters and Hapkido by Kimm He Young and you'll have some good reference material to do something of a comparison, it won't be easy - it wasn't for me when I tried. I was doing it just out of curiosity and quickly discovered it's a much deeper project that I wanted to spend time on, at least for now.
What I have found is that variations of Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Shihonage, Sankyo, Koshinage and Iriminage are all present in our Hapkido curriculum, we don't use Korean names for them. Those form the basis for many techniques in all 3 arts and the differences are variations on the techniques. Aikido for example seems to use the term Koshinage for any hip throw and Iriminage for a wide variety of 'clothesline' techniques. I'm sure there are many other common techniques, those are just core locks or throws that I've noticed are more or less the same.
Someone else has done similar research for Aikido that you might be interested in, he found that 82% of Aikido correlates with Aikijutsu, I don't recall if it's Ok to link to other sites here so do a Google serach for Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza and you should find it.
It's not a simple project, I don't think you can really do it justice with just Youtube and without experience in at least one of the styles. Get Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo, Korean Hapkido: Ancient Art of Masters and Hapkido by Kimm He Young and you'll have some good reference material to do something of a comparison, it won't be easy - it wasn't for me when I tried. I was doing it just out of curiosity and quickly discovered it's a much deeper project that I wanted to spend time on, at least for now.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Could you elaborate on that a little please?
oftheherd1
Senior Master
I think that is true. In fact, not all Hapkido seems to be called Hapkido.
iron_ox
Black Belt
Hello OTH1,
Have you looked up Hui Son Choe? Do that and you will see why I do not believe his material should even be for sale, let alone why anyone should buy it.
And if the OP wants to examine Hapkido vs. something else, it would be best done with a Hapkido group that actually does some Hapkido right? The website for this group says this:
"MuSool HapKiDo is a system with roots in traditional HapKiDo yet remaining open to the evolution that all martial arts must undergo over time. Through hard work, dedication, and lots of practice, the founders of the system were able to re-discover theories and principles that work as a complete system, but still complemented other styles.
Our system lays no claim to specific techniques. It is NOT a new martial art, nor is it a new style of HapKiDo. In fact, many of the techniques used in MuSool HapKiDo can be found in martial art styles all over the world."
Hmmmmm.
Just my thoughts.
iron_ox
Black Belt
Seems true, as true as most "Hapkido" isn't Hapkido...
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Can't argue with your post. I think I see the disconnect I thought I saw. The OP mentioned Choi, which I took to mean Choi Yong Sul. You are talking about Choe Hui Son. I don't know where I missed the connection, or lack of it. I don't recall hearing about Choe Hui Son. Actually, I am not big on the entire history of Hapkido and its variations. I know my GM's teaching, and accepted his teaching. Only after I returned to the USA did I begin to realize there were divisions and off-shoots. And it has only been in the last few years that I learned that not all of what calls itself Hapkido get along with each other, or even recognize the legitimacy of each other.
So I guess I would also agree that not all of what calls itself Hapkido is Hapkido, although some schools may have descended from from Hapkido. And I certainly agree that the OP's best chance would be to personally study both the arts he wishes to compare, or collect some practitioners from each to demonstrate. Neither option is terribly practical.
iron_ox
Black Belt
Choe Hui Son was sent to prison for manslaughter, yet his organization kept selling all his materials, and still does without a single word about remunerating the victims family. He has nothing to do with Hapkido politics, but have always been curious as to why his material is still for sale through his organization.
As far as getting along or recognizing legitimacy, I think it is an interesting question. No one claimed being the Founder of Hapkido until after Choi Dojunim's death, then lots of of people made many claims as to standing and rank. I don't think anyone thought that information would be this available as it is now in an instant, but now the the veracity of most of these claims can be tested, and many have been proven false.
In my opinion, it is important to recognize Choi Dojunim as Hapkido's single Founder, and all those that chose to add whatever they have as variants. An unpopular opinion.
Many schools have descended from Hapkido, and to give credit where it is due, many are great instructors, but the standing in the art is another matter altogether.
Like I said, the OP has his heart in the right place, but instead of undertaking to compare apples to oranges, he should find a Hapkido school as close to the root as he can and start with that study.
Good discussion.
OP
OP
Doomx2001
Green Belt
The reason I referenced Choe's book, is because it happened to be close by, and it actually has names for the techniques which most Hapkido styles do not. I'm not interested in the feelings or the politics or anything relating to what Choe did, again, I just used material in his book as a quick example.
I was asked to elaborate better as to what I was asking everyone. So quickly, after searching youtube for about 10 minutes, I finally found a Hapkido video that matches Kotegaeshi (which is hard to do becasue you can't find too many Hapkido techniques by name on Youtube for reasons explained earlier.) So that, in the end, everyone got an idea of what I was asking them.
As far as comparing Aikido and Aikijujutsu to Hapkido, well, you really can't find a detailed curriuculum on Aikijujutsu on the net (at least one that is reliable to Sokaku Takeda's school), and in saying that, Aikido, as it is very similular, but soft, has many videos and many websites that go in depth on the techniques. Most Daito Ryu videos cover the same material, and are usually quick demonstrations.
If anyone has a detailed list of techniques of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, that would be preferable, and most appreicated.
As far as finding info on Choi Yong Sul, there is alot out there, but it is all regerated info that says the exact same thing.
Thank you everybody for taking the time to respond.
- Brian
I was asked to elaborate better as to what I was asking everyone. So quickly, after searching youtube for about 10 minutes, I finally found a Hapkido video that matches Kotegaeshi (which is hard to do becasue you can't find too many Hapkido techniques by name on Youtube for reasons explained earlier.) So that, in the end, everyone got an idea of what I was asking them.
As far as comparing Aikido and Aikijujutsu to Hapkido, well, you really can't find a detailed curriuculum on Aikijujutsu on the net (at least one that is reliable to Sokaku Takeda's school), and in saying that, Aikido, as it is very similular, but soft, has many videos and many websites that go in depth on the techniques. Most Daito Ryu videos cover the same material, and are usually quick demonstrations.
If anyone has a detailed list of techniques of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, that would be preferable, and most appreicated.
As far as finding info on Choi Yong Sul, there is alot out there, but it is all regerated info that says the exact same thing.
Thank you everybody for taking the time to respond.
- Brian
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Nothing constructive here but I am interested in your project, I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.
I am not sure what Doom is after but I have to admit it's a compelling topic. I would like to learn more about it too but geesh, where to start?
This is an interesting thread. I have practiced Aikido for many years and just recently started Hapkido. I have also trained and examined DR techniques through out the time I was training in Aikido. One thing that is of note is how the Aikido techniques have changed from pre- WW2 (Aikibudo) to post WW2 and even over the years I have trained. Versions of Aikido such as Yoshinkan are very close to DR. And even the Iwama style of Aikido is more combative than the traditional style of Aikido that is taught in many dojos.
What I find fascinating are the similarities in techniques across all the three arts and yet how different they are. Even though all the arts have what appear to be the standard set of classical jujutsu techniques (omitting BJJ because I have no experience in it) the way they are taught and the focus on how they are taught is different.
The previously posted shihonage video is a good example of this. Ironically, the way it is shown in the video is how I was originally taught the technique in Aikido some 20 years ago. It started with a sword kata then went to empty hand. a lot of time was spent explaining how dangerous the technique is. The reason for the explanation was to prevent injury, not to give someone knowledge on how to hurt a person. Regretfully, Aikido does not show the connection between the sword techniques and the empty hand techniques as the main focus of the training. By saying this I am not saying every dojo or sensei does this. I am sure there are places that go into great detail about the relationship between sword technique and empty hand. In my experience, i have seen a decline in this practice. Traditional Aikido has weapon katas that are the weapons version of the empty hand techniques. While other styles of Aikido created their own weapons katas that have little or no relation to the empty hand techniques.
With Hapkido I can say I have learned the technique without the sword explanation. However, unlike DR or Aikido this technique was introduced to me as a defense to a knife attack. Usually defending against knife attacks was seen as a more advanced form of training. Students would start off learning this technique from a grab. It would appear that Hapkido is demonstrating a more combat orientated approach to their training not really seen in Aikido. But here my knowledge and exposure is extremely limited as I have just begun to train in this art. I am sure one of the more experienced practitioners of Hapkido will weigh in and shed light on training techniques and emphasis. From what I have read in Hapkido books there is a great deal of emphasis on Hapki and the explanations seem more similar between DR and Hapkido rather than Aikido. Yet, DR is really in a league of its own even in the Koryu circles.
For me it is not so much the similarities in techniques but the differences in training focus that distinguishes the uniqueness and ultimately the effectiveness of the arts.
What I find fascinating are the similarities in techniques across all the three arts and yet how different they are. Even though all the arts have what appear to be the standard set of classical jujutsu techniques (omitting BJJ because I have no experience in it) the way they are taught and the focus on how they are taught is different.
The previously posted shihonage video is a good example of this. Ironically, the way it is shown in the video is how I was originally taught the technique in Aikido some 20 years ago. It started with a sword kata then went to empty hand. a lot of time was spent explaining how dangerous the technique is. The reason for the explanation was to prevent injury, not to give someone knowledge on how to hurt a person. Regretfully, Aikido does not show the connection between the sword techniques and the empty hand techniques as the main focus of the training. By saying this I am not saying every dojo or sensei does this. I am sure there are places that go into great detail about the relationship between sword technique and empty hand. In my experience, i have seen a decline in this practice. Traditional Aikido has weapon katas that are the weapons version of the empty hand techniques. While other styles of Aikido created their own weapons katas that have little or no relation to the empty hand techniques.
With Hapkido I can say I have learned the technique without the sword explanation. However, unlike DR or Aikido this technique was introduced to me as a defense to a knife attack. Usually defending against knife attacks was seen as a more advanced form of training. Students would start off learning this technique from a grab. It would appear that Hapkido is demonstrating a more combat orientated approach to their training not really seen in Aikido. But here my knowledge and exposure is extremely limited as I have just begun to train in this art. I am sure one of the more experienced practitioners of Hapkido will weigh in and shed light on training techniques and emphasis. From what I have read in Hapkido books there is a great deal of emphasis on Hapki and the explanations seem more similar between DR and Hapkido rather than Aikido. Yet, DR is really in a league of its own even in the Koryu circles.
For me it is not so much the similarities in techniques but the differences in training focus that distinguishes the uniqueness and ultimately the effectiveness of the arts.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Hap - thanks for your post. You might want go to the Meet and Greet sub-forum and introduce yourself.
I would be very interested in your insights to differences or similarities between Aikido and Hapkido as you continue to train.
As to the video, I guess you are referring to the sword technique portion? Knife techniques were a more advanced set of techniques, being taught at the red belt level when I began studying. I understand the Korean Hapkido Association has since moved it to somewhere between 1st and 2nd dan instruction. However, I can't think of any grab defense that transitioned into a knife defense. I will have think on that more. Mind you, we do usually grab the knife hand, but I don't recall a grab defense that would begin it. It was to deflect and control the knife hand, or apply something like a hammer lock.
I need to think on that more. I may have missed the connection. Thanks for your insights.
I would be very interested in your insights to differences or similarities between Aikido and Hapkido as you continue to train.
As to the video, I guess you are referring to the sword technique portion? Knife techniques were a more advanced set of techniques, being taught at the red belt level when I began studying. I understand the Korean Hapkido Association has since moved it to somewhere between 1st and 2nd dan instruction. However, I can't think of any grab defense that transitioned into a knife defense. I will have think on that more. Mind you, we do usually grab the knife hand, but I don't recall a grab defense that would begin it. It was to deflect and control the knife hand, or apply something like a hammer lock.
I need to think on that more. I may have missed the connection. Thanks for your insights.
OP
OP
Doomx2001
Green Belt
Well, a little bit of everything actually. The biggest reason I would say is for my own historical curiosity. Choi Yong Sul learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu in Japan for decades. He comes back to his native Korea teaching what he learned. All the accounts that I've read about GM Choi is that his Hapkido was very brutal and straight forward. I read one story that stated that when Sokaku Takeda wanted to shame a student who was a little to 'full of themselves', he would have Choi spar with his class mate. Choi was said to have been very good at sparring. And of course he would defeat his opponent. The shame came not so much from the defeat, but rather a Japanese being defeated by a Korean.
Anyway, I would imagine that Choi's version Daito ryu would differ greatly because I get the sense that he may have sparred alot, shaping the way he did techniques differently from how he was taught through trial and error in sparring matches. Possibly creating something very effective and straight forward that we see some Hapkido styles today. This is just a theory, but one I think is worth looking into.
Also, I would think that Daito ryu Aikijujutsu may have changed since the passing of Sokaku Takeda. But I have no proof to really go on this one either. But, GM Choi's Hapkido may be more closer to what Takeda taught than what is being taught as Daito ryu today. As far as I can tell, Aikido and Aikijujutsu are looking more and more alike.
Also there are Hapkido techniques that I am trying to master, and by studying the source art (Daito ryu) I can get a better idea of how the techniques are done in Japan, and how they differ in Hapkido, and maybe figure out why the techniques changed here and there as well as learn different ways of doing the same technique. Of course, I understand that techniques vary teacher to teacher, but some techniques remain the same regardless of Hapkido style.
I would to mention as well, I would like to learn the Japanese names to the same techniques found in Hapkido as most Hapkido styles don't have names for many of their techniques. I learn better by names or giving techniques names rather than saying ' here is technique #1, now here is #2,..' and so on.
But, anyway, it all about learning, and growing as a martial artist. Also, honoring the memory of GM Choi and the other marital art giants from that time period. I want to preserve history as well as do research into Hapkido's roots that wouldn't just benefit myself, but anyone who would be interested. I appreciate all the comments and thoughts so far.
My 'research' is hopefully received in good spirit for which it is intended.
- Brian (or Doom)
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