Hand and foot arrive at the same time, or foot arrive first and hand arrive later?

[dvcochran]

This was also one of the "secrets" that Jack Dempsey taught called the "falling step".

I also agree that the various methods of timing a punch are based on what you want to happen and are all good in that context.

In general, many beginners are taught foot first and establish a good base and then the punch follows. As you become better, you can apply many of those principles and hit with a whole body punch while in motion.

Agreed. In simple terms, If you step to punch and complete the step first, much of the body is no longer used in the power of the punch. Less mass is available therefore less power. The punch may use more segments of the body, but it would still be a segmented punch. As said, learning the step first is great for establishing a good base. If proper training is not continued, it is also great for learning bad habits. Conversely, punching way before the step is touching the ground hurts power. You only have the distance of the step to gain speed. I think of it as a car going 5 mph vs. a car going 25 mph. All that said, I think it is the acceleration we learn through proper technique that really makes the difference. And the confidence to use it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agreed. In simple terms, If you step to punch and complete the step first, much of the body is no longer used in the power of the punch. Less mass is available therefore less power. The punch may use more segments of the body, but it would still be a segmented punch. As said, learning the step first is great for establishing a good base. If proper training is not continued, it is also great for learning bad habits. Conversely, punching way before the step is touching the ground hurts power. You only have the distance of the step to gain speed. I think of it as a car going 5 mph vs. a car going 25 mph. All that said, I think it is the acceleration we learn through proper technique that really makes the difference. And the confidence to use it.

Yes it's the acceleration that drives power. The rest delivers the power. This makes it possible to deliver great power within inches of movement with little brute force effort. But all things every punch has its place and time.

 

[JadeDragon]

Regarding
'I.e. you plant your foot, thereby dissipating energy into the ground, reducing the force available from your forward momentum.'

If you do not anchor your foot with a low center of gravity, the force of a strike will move you backward, rather than penetrating the target.
______

Car suspension absorbs energy, that's why it's fitted in the first place - if it magnified energy there would be cars bouncing into the sky... It's there to absorb the variations in the surface and isolate the rest of the vehicle and passengers from it. It's also to keep the wheels in contact with the ground - a car with no suspension bounces about a lot. The linkages are built so there is absolutely minimal fore to aft and side to side movement - the forward force is converted to vertical motion, which is why a car dips under braking.

When you brake, the majority of the forward momentum energy is converted into heat by the friction of the brakes and a small portion is dissipated by the springs and shocks.

If you're resolute in your assertion that it's a valid analogy of the mechanics of your punch, I have no logical choice other than to deduce your punch is much less powerful than it could be using a different method.

I.e. you plant your foot, thereby dissipating energy into the ground, reducing the force available from your forward momentum.




Now, because I'm nice, I'll be much more prepared to accept the whip analogy - or just maybe the nunchaku illustration (although the mechanics are different between say a bullwhip and a nun...)

 

[JadeDragon]

Good demonstration of the child in a car seat and explanation.

The crash slows the car down, so do the brakes. This is what propels the child forward.

Smart to add to this energy for a combined effect.

 

[pdg]

If you do not anchor your foot with a low center of gravity, the force of a strike will move you backward, rather than penetrating the target.

Depends how you do it, and where...

In space, yes a punch delivered by you will send you backwards - but only if delivered to a larger object. An equally massive object will move the same amount as you, a smaller one will move more.

If I jump directly upward and punch at the apex of my jump, the punch may be less forceful but it won't push me back an appreciable amount.

If I root my feet and just throw a punch it'll still lack power if I don't engage more of my body.

If I punch like a boxer (engage the hips and core in a twist) the punch will have much more power - watch a boxer punch by the way, their feet aren't planted solidly to the floor, they lift the heel and pivot on the ball of the foot.

Now, if I move my entire mass in the direction of the punch, even by jumping, the maximum power will be generated if the termination of the punch is synchronised with my feet landing - note here, the termination of the punch is not when it makes contact, rather a couple of inches inside the target.

 

[pdg]

The crash slows the car down, so do the brakes. This is what propels the child forward.

No, it doesn't.

What propels the child is the car accelerating at the start of the journey - during the crash it's no longer being propelled.

The child has momentum of it's own due to it's moving mass (being in a moving car) - the crash simply stops the car but fails to stop the child until it finds something to hit.

The child (or other unsecured object) will never move faster than at the moment before impact - as soon as impact occurs it'll start to slow down.

 

[JadeDragon]

To start the step and complete it with the punch combines the forces.

Do not complete the step, but pedal it; this is Xingyi Scissor Stepping.

Agreed. In simple terms, If you step to punch and complete the step first, much of the body is no longer used in the power of the punch. Less mass is available therefore less power. The punch may use more segments of the body, but it would still be a segmented punch. As said, learning the step first is great for establishing a good base. If proper training is not continued, it is also great for learning bad habits. Conversely, punching way before the step is touching the ground hurts power. You only have the distance of the step to gain speed. I think of it as a car going 5 mph vs. a car going 25 mph. All that said, I think it is the acceleration we learn through proper technique that really makes the difference. And the confidence to use it.

 

[JadeDragon]

Starting and acceleration in a car throws the passengers back, and not forward inside the vehicle.

The child moving forward inside the vehicle, is like the internal energy moving inside and out past the arm, to damage the target.

This is like a hollow shaft half filled with water. The shaft stopping on impact, but the water inside moving forward.

No, it doesn't.

What propels the child is the car accelerating at the start of the journey - during the crash it's no longer being propelled.

The child has momentum of it's own due to it's moving mass (being in a moving car) - the crash simply stops the car but fails to stop the child until it finds something to hit.

The child (or other unsecured object) will never move faster than at the moment before impact - as soon as impact occurs it'll start to slow down.

 

[JadeDragon]

Pole vaulting also uses the combination of adding to the step's energy to the body and arm for a launch.

 

[pdg]

Starting and acceleration in a car throws the passengers back, and not forward inside the vehicle.

You are using entirely the wrong reference point (and switching around), which is incorrect.

The reference point is the target - or using the car, the wall it hits.

When a car starts moving the passengers have a force exerted upon them from behind (through the seat). They are being moved forward, but because they have mass they don't quite accelerate initially at the same rate as the car. From their perspective they are "thrown back", but their perspective is immaterial. It's only perspective as well, because even though they feel they are being thrown back, they aren't. They're being thrown forward by being pushed from behind, which 'feels' like walking backwards into a wall. If I shove you in the back, you move forwards - that's identical.

From the viewpoint of outside the car, they move forward. From inside the car, they go back (even though they're going forward) slightly, then catch up.

Shortly afterwards, they reach a state of equilibrium with the car, when they feel static - but of course they're not static because they're moving at the same speed as the car.

If the car brakes, decelerates or hits a wall, the passengers are not thrown forward - they are in fact having their forward motion retarded, being pulled back in effect. They are restrained by a seatbelt, or simply by the friction between their bum and the seat. If the deceleration is of sufficient magnitude, their momentum can overcome the friction (or they brace their legs which can act as a lever on a pivot) and continue on the forward trajectory, but slower than before. They are going slower because their continued movement is reliant solely on their momentum, there is no energy available to convert into more acceleration.

 

[pdg]

Pole vaulting also uses the combination of adding to the step's energy to the body and arm for a launch.

That is yet another entirely different set of mechanics to the car analogy.

Also, it's still wrong.

It doesn't use the step at all - you can pole vault from a skateboard. What it uses is redirection of momentum.

Your body weight is moving forward (the run up), that momentum is directed into the pole, which bends and redirects the force from straight forward into a vertical direction.

The force required to bend the pole and initiate the jump is greater than the energy returned by the pole straightening and 'lifting' the jumper.

It can be no other way - if it was any other way what you would have is the impossible situation of a 100+% efficient machine (otherwise known as perpetual motion capable) which is a physical impossibility. It cannot exist. Conversion of energy requires energy to be dissipated in some manner.

 

[jks9199]

The idea behind the drop step/falling step/foot hitting after the punch lands is that your whole body is "behind" (I'm sure the physics are different) the punch. It can be very fast (falling at the speed of gravity...) and there is very little telegraph if it's done properly. Some other things can go on, too -- acceleration from the arm and legs propelling the body, tension within the body, and more, to add to that source of power. The power from this sort of punch feels to me like a falling hammer or dropping a rock on your toe... but that's just my description. It's also a VERY committed, almost off balance punch.

Landing before the punch allows you to use various muscle and body movement techniques to "push" or "spring" the punch rather than that gravity effect. It's more telegraphed, because the foot goes in first (but can be deceptive because you can sometimes sneak the foot in...) There are ways to generate the falling energy here, and you are better rooted. You can also "pull" the punch in with the lead leg. The power here feels horizontal and penetrating. You're more balanced to move after the punch.

The foot and fist connecting at the same moment seeks a balance between the two. It can be very explosive... but it requires a lot of split second timing. It can be very explosive when it hits. But it's also a more technical punch because it tends to become a poorly executed version of either of the other approaches.

Understanding the force and physics in a punch is very complicated because you have a lot of things going on, different lever actions, different types of momentum, body linkages... We used to have a member, pstarr (haven't seen him around in forever and a day) who wrote a book or two about it...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good demonstration of the child in a car seat and explanation.

The crash slows the car down, so do the brakes. This is what propels the child forward.

Smart to add to this energy for a combined effect.

If you like that then you'll like this one. This shows the concept but slower speed shorter distance. See 3.23. Watch the how the guy's body reacts. So even at a slower speed, over a short distance we can still see the body move forward.

This is my favorite from childhood, when skateboard meets small rock. I wasn't such a baby when it happened to me. lol The first time someone gets hurts like this is always funny because it's the first time they experience pain like this, more scare than injury lol. But anyway you can see @ 0:17 that he still continues to move forward.

No matter if it's a car, skateboard, or horse or fist, the science is the same. Once you are in motion your body will continue that motion until it is stopped either by hitting something or by muscle, tendon, and skin stops it from going forward

While the concept is easy to understand, it's difficult to learn. Some people understand how to do quickly but most people will spend years trying to fine tune that ability.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The foot and fist connecting at the same moment seeks a balance between the two. It can be very explosive... but it requires a lot of split second timing. It can be very explosive when it hits. But it's also a more technical punch because it tends to become a poorly executed version of either of the other approaches.

Understanding the force and physics in a punch is very complicated because you have a lot of things going on, different lever actions, different types of momentum, body linkages.

Totally agree. Timing is crucial and it becomes more of a challenge when using it in sparring when you not only have to time your own punch but you have to time this type of power generation and do it with in the context of someone who is trying to hit and kick you. One time I literally took 4 round house kicks to the body from a TKD guy to trying to time this punch. Even though he wasn't kicking hard, by the 4th kick I could feel my body was starting to bruise. I finally got it down pat on the 5th kick. I was afraid that I would react too quickly which in turn would have added too much to that forward movement. It was worth it the 4 kicks to my hip and the bruises that followed. To pull it off and not injure someone badly made me feel good about my control. So to sum it up I had to
1. Time his kick and move forward take power away from his round house kick.
2. Time my punch, my forward movement, and the planting of my foot
3. Target a specific area on the jaw.
4. Time all of this to take advantage of him dropping his guard while he did his round house kick.

It was the one day that I wish I decided to tape a sparring session. A lot of good sparring happened on that day; from everyone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you step to punch and complete the step first, much of the body is no longer used in the power of the punch

This usually happens because the person stops the momentum and then punches. It's possible to step first and keep much of the momentum, if the person adds it to other mechanics of punching. The easiest way to see this at works is to look at sports like football, lacrosse, and baseball. All of which propel the ball by stepping first then punching

Depending on the type of punch you are doing, you'll need to plant the foot first then punch, Sometimes you'll need to establish the root before the punch in order to prevent the punch from throwing you off balance. Haymakers are a perfect example of this. Haymakers can use forward motion to help "jump start" twisting motion. It's a slower punch and it uses other power generation as well. The good thing is that it is more forgiving, so if your miss the forward timing you can still generate significant force with twisting.

 

[evan.fedora]

I feel more comfortable in Foot 1st then Hand ..otherwise, it causes issues in balance in rare cases. It's better to be safe than sorry in a real fight scenario.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your hay-maker come down 45 degree, to land your foot with your strike, you can take advantage on your "weight drop".

 

[JadeDragon]

No you cannot pole vault from a skate board, the pole is set firmly in the ground or you will slide, when you step it must be firm or you will slide also.

That is yet another entirely different set of mechanics to the car analogy.

Also, it's still wrong.

It doesn't use the step at all - you can pole vault from a skateboard. What it uses is redirection of momentum.

Your body weight is moving forward (the run up), that momentum is directed into the pole, which bends and redirects the force from straight forward into a vertical direction.

The force required to bend the pole and initiate the jump is greater than the energy returned by the pole straightening and 'lifting' the jumper.

It can be no other way - if it was any other way what you would have is the impossible situation of a 100+% efficient machine (otherwise known as perpetual motion capable) which is a physical impossibility. It cannot exist. Conversion of energy requires energy to be dissipated in some manner.

 

[JadeDragon]

In gmnastics, a springboard is used for forward and upward movement in vaulting to spin a forward flip. The timing of the step is not to complete the step and then jump, you step slightly before the jump and continue it.

This pedaling action of the springboard/vaulting board has the same mechanical principles as stepping first, continuing the step with the pedaling action, as you strike forward.

A springboard will also increase the horizontal distance in the broad jump.

 

[JadeDragon]

A canon is anchored to the ground, or when it is shot the explosion would be dissipated by the canon moving forward. The cannonball would not hit forward with as much force.

If the canon was mounted on a jet going forward, it would hit with more force than when the jet was not accelerating.

So too it is with starting the step first and continue stepping forward and punching.

These actions are detailed in Newtonian Physics.