Had a Seizure in Jiu Jitsu Class Today

[Gerry Seymour]

What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha

It's okay. I usually assume Drop Bear is offensive, too.

Seriously, I think he was saying you just learned that you weren't as good as you thought (per your comment that you need to train more). Something many martial artists train a long time without learning, or at least learn a lot later than we should, and a useful lesson for any of us.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You got to go get on top of that kid, bro... don't let him go forward playin' you like that. Next time, power force your way into a full mount, ground and pound him a couple imes and then front choke him out with your nose pressed right up against his saying, "Fun, ain't it!"

Wait... sorry... Flashback from a "Get in My Guard" youtube video. Don't do that.

Sorry, couldn't resist since you made light of the situation already yourself. Agree with the above though, make apt witht he doc, let him/her know what happened, and just make sure.

Okay, Kramer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If a person is relatively close to your body weight (or more), I agree it is certainly in the hips. With Someone much small than you, you can buck with your upper body. If a person is high mounted with their weight forward, and I get my elbows wriggled under, then I can still buck them over. Bench press might be a better term than buck here. I grapple with a handful of folks who are smaller than me who think they can grab a high mount on me without putting their knees into my armpits to secure open elbows and they usually find themselves getting thrown off.

You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.

 

[james0012]

You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.

Is that all its been? Feels like more but the maths adds up. And yeah, it's hard to concentrate when you're being strangled for a straight minute. Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is that all its been? Feels like more but the maths adds up. And yeah, it's hard to concentrate when you're being strangled for a straight minute. Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?

Very unlikely it was a minute, though it may have seemed that way.

 

[james0012]

Very unlikely it was a minute, though it may have seemed that way.

It was a long time, 1 minute would still be my estimation. But then again, I'm not the most reliable person with times.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

He then strangled me. (sidenote: is this a legal move?)

Yep.

I don't think anyone had taught him it! It definitely is not nice, one of the reasons why I thought it was not a legal move.

Most of jiu-jitsu is not "nice" moves. You're training to break people's limbs and choke them unconscious. That's why tapping early and often is so important.

From your description, the kid was doing the classic Hollywood-style choke just wrapping both hands around your neck and leaning his weight on you? The reason that's not taught is that it's much less effective and much easier to escape than a technical jiu-jitsu choke.

kind of made me wonder if I've even learned anything in the 2 months! Maybe I need to start going twice a week.

It's hard to progress very quickly going to classes only once per week. Also, 2 months is not very long.

That's really unlikely to be an actual seizure. That sort of random muscle twitching is quite common when people pass out (or are choked out).

Agreed. I've seen that multiple times.

I'm 34 years old and have been attending class for about 2 months now so I didn't want to try too hard. This attitude led to him (impressively) getting me in a full mount with his legs pinning my shoulders so his arms were free and mine weren't

You just leaned what many martial artists never learn.

There are no lies on the mat.

What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha

It means you've had a chance to learn the important distinction between what your ego would like to tell you and the cold truth of reality. You thought a little kid couldn't do anything to you and you got choked unconscious as a result. Now imagine it was someone your own size, with actual experience and training, using a proper technical choke which is 10 times as effective as what the kid did to you.

but I think the result was more of a combination of luck

As Renzo Gracie says, the more I train, the luckier I get.

This wasn't a random street encounter where someone cold-cocked you just as your turned to look at a car crash and simultaneously tripped on a pothole. This was a controlled environment on a flat surface with an agreed upon start point. You lost because you underestimated your opponent and then didn't have the skillset to escape once that error in judgment got you into a bad place. Both of those are in your power to work on improving.

me being taken by surprise than a question of skill or strength.

I'll agree it's not a question of strength (unless that's a freakishly strong 11 year old). It's definitely a question of skill. With greater skill, you would have been able to avoid getting mounted like that and would have known how to escape if you did get into that position.

Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?

That's what tapping is for. If your partner doesn't tap, he's indicating that he still feels safe.True, an experienced practitioner will recognize a situation where his partner's hands are unable to tap and will be alert for other signals (like your feet tapping), but if the kid has only been to a few classes, he may not recognize that.

Tip for the future: if you are being choked like that, tuck your chin to your chest and pull your shoulders to your ears. That should protect your neck long enough so that you should at least be able to say "tap" verbally.

 

[james0012]

It means you've had a chance to learn the important distinction between what your ego would like to tell you and the cold truth of reality. You thought a little kid couldn't do anything to you and you got choked unconscious as a result. Now imagine it was someone your own size, with actual experience and training, using a proper technical choke which is 10 times as effective as what the kid did to you.

Yes, admittingly there is a lot of training to go.

That's what tapping is for. If your partner doesn't tap, he's indicating that he still feels safe.True, an experienced practitioner will recognize a situation where his partner's hands are unable to tap and will be alert for other signals (like your feet tapping), but if the kid has only been to a few classes, he may not recognize that.

Tip for the future: if you are being choked like that, tuck your chin to your chest and pull your shoulders to your ears. That should protect your neck long enough so that you should at least be able to say "tap" verbally.

What I'm saying is that it was clear that I was not feeling safe. I looked in the bathroom mirror afterwards and was completely blue. I was also continuously gagging quite loudly. If I were on the other end, I would have let go quite quickly regardless if there was a tap to prevent serious injury.

I don't think the tip would apply here. My shoulders were trapped underneath his legs and he had control of my head movements.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My hands were in a weird position and he mounted me by surprise. One hand was underneath my body and the other was palm down and half pinned so I could only drum the mat.

I don't think the tip would apply here. My shoulders were trapped underneath his legs and he had control of my head movements.

I suspect you are not remembering the details of your position and your sparring partner's position completely accurately. That's not surprising. You're at the point where many beginners barely can tell their left from their right or how to move on the ground without falling over on their own. A lot of the time, your perception about how your body is positioned does not quite match up to reality.

It would be very difficult to mount someone in such a way that your legs could control their shoulders and head so completely that they could not tuck their chin or shrug their shoulders towards their ears. It would be even harder to do that to someone who is much larger. I'm a 194 pound BJJ black belt and I'd have to do some experimentation to figure out if I could even do that. If you could do it, it would change the angle of the choke so as to make the choke weaker. Furthermore, it would mean the top person was so far forward that the bottom person's hands would definitely be free to tap or could become free to do so with just a minimal amount of wiggling.

If your instructor happened to be watching at the moment, I'm sure he could have shown you how to easily adjust your position so that you verbally or physically tap. Since you aren't used to this sort of experience yet, you probably froze up mentally and didn't realize a lot of the opportunities you had for protecting yourself, escaping, or tapping.

 

[james0012]

I suspect you are not remembering the details of your position and your sparring partner's position completely accurately. That's not surprising. You're at the point where many beginners barely can tell their left from their right or how to move on the ground without falling over on their own. A lot of the time, your perception about how your body is positioned does not quite match up to reality.

It would be very difficult to mount someone in such a way that your legs could control their shoulders and head so completely that they could not tuck their chin or shrug their shoulders towards their ears. It would be even harder to do that to someone who is much larger. I'm a 194 pound BJJ black belt and I'd have to do some experimentation to figure out if I could even do that. If you could do it, it would change the angle of the choke so as to make the choke weaker. Furthermore, it would mean the top person was so far forward that the bottom person's hands would definitely be free to tap or could become free to do so with just a minimal amount of wiggling.

If your instructor happened to be watching at the moment, I'm sure he could have shown you how to easily adjust your position so that you verbally or physically tap. Since you aren't used to this sort of experience yet, you probably froze up mentally and didn't realize a lot of the opportunities you had for protecting yourself, escaping, or tapping.

I think this is where the luck part I was talking about comes in. Now this may not be completely accurate as I am just a lowly beginner haha. But here's how I remembered it:

When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense, I'm sure there were a lot of opportunities to escape or tap that I didn't take. I know I was concentrating on trying to make noise with my feet more than anything. Even tried tapping out by blinking hard 3 times, that would have been a first!

As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement? I don't know, I'm probably making a fool of myself! And the instructor wasn't watching, he probably would have broke it up if he was.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense,

Do you remember, was he

• sitting on you like a chair, with his feet on the floor past your head
• kneeling on your shoulders, with his feet tucked under him and on top of you
• sitting on your shoulders with the inside of his knee wrapped over your shoulders and his feet tucked underneath your body and/or arms
• or sitting on your shoulders with his knees splayed wide so they were on the floor next to your shoulders and his lower legs on the floor outside of your arms?

Any one of those has fairly easy ways to free your hands enough to tap, the details are just a little different for each.

As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement?

Nope. When I teach the defense against that choke, tucking the chin (and shrugging the shoulders) is the very first thing I show. The choking hands really can't stop it. You just didn't try it because you haven't yet learned the fundamentals of defense against chokes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this is where the luck part I was talking about comes in. Now this may not be completely accurate as I am just a lowly beginner haha. But here's how I remembered it:

When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense, I'm sure there were a lot of opportunities to escape or tap that I didn't take. I know I was concentrating on trying to make noise with my feet more than anything. Even tried tapping out by blinking hard 3 times, that would have been a first!

As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement? I don't know, I'm probably making a fool of myself! And the instructor wasn't watching, he probably would have broke it up if he was.

As Tony posted, there are defenses at any of the points that would restrict your hands (and he's far more of an expert on those than I am). Most are fairly easy...(wait for it)...once you know and have practiced them. This early in your training, you just haven't gotten to (many/any) of them.

And the chin tuck is very strong. It would probably take someone pretty skilled and reasonably strong to prevent the tuck from buying some space (@Tony Dismukes I assume that's something someone like you could manage?). Neck muscles are pretty strong, compared to hand muscles, so once you learn to use this, it's a big help at buying a bit of an opening.

 

[james0012]

Do you remember, was he

• sitting on you like a chair, with his feet on the floor past your head
• kneeling on your shoulders, with his feet tucked under him and on top of you
• sitting on your shoulders with the inside of his knee wrapped over your shoulders and his feet tucked underneath your body and/or arms
• or sitting on your shoulders with his knees splayed wide so they were on the floor next to your shoulders and his lower legs on the floor outside of your arms?

Any one of those has fairly easy ways to free your hands enough to tap, the details are just a little different for each.



Nope. When I teach the defense against that choke, tucking the chin (and shrugging the shoulders) is the very first thing I show. The choking hands really can't stop it. You just didn't try it because you haven't yet learned the fundamentals of defense against chokes.

So my shoulders and hands were close together, my elbows were pointing out. He had his knees on my shoulders and the upper shins on my left wrist and right forearm. It was an unorthodox position, I'm sure. I doubt he could replicate it if he tried. What were the easy ways to free my hands there? I wish I could show you a picture but I would have no idea what to type in Google.

As for the neck, I was looking straight up at the ceiling (edit: by ceiling I mean figuratively, ceiling vision was obscured), back of my head pinned against the mat. From that position, would it still be possible to tuck my neck? Considering the more I tuck, the faster I would choke as well. I would like to try out this defense.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And the chin tuck is very strong. It would probably take someone pretty skilled and reasonably strong to prevent the tuck from buying some space (@Tony Dismukes I assume that's something someone like you could manage?).

Not from that position and applying that choke. If you want to prevent the chin tuck, you need a good lever. In a real fight, I'd prefer the nose. In a more friendly match, from the rear you can use the forehead, from front headlock position you can use the chinstrap grip, from mounted you can use sidewise pressure on the chin to rotate the head and open up some neck space.

So my shoulders and hands were close together, my elbows were pointing out. He had his knees on my shoulders and the upper shins on my left wrist and right forearm. It was an unorthodox position, I'm sure. I doubt he could replicate it if he tried. What were the easy ways to free my hands there?

In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)

From that position, would it still be possible to tuck my neck?

Absolutely.

Considering the more I tuck, the faster I would choke as well.

Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.

To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not from that position and applying that choke. If you want to prevent the chin tuck, you need a good lever. In a real fight, I'd prefer the nose. In a more friendly match, from the rear you can use the forehead, from front headlock position you can use the chinstrap grip, from mounted you can use sidewise pressure on the chin to rotate the head and open up some neck space.


In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)


Absolutely.



Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.

To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.

Thanks, Tony. I assumed there would be something that would work there to get past/prevent the tuck, beyond what I know. But now that you put it that way, there really isn't much leverage if you're positioned that high on the torso.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks, Tony. I assumed there would be something that would work there to get past/prevent the tuck, beyond what I know. But now that you put it that way, there really isn't much leverage if you're positioned that high on the torso.

Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.

Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.

*(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.

Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.

Good point.

*(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)

I remember an instructor at a seminar telling me about seeing someone (Gene LeBell?) teach that particular lesson to a certain MA movie star who thought he wasn't chokeable.

 

[james0012]

First of all, thank you for taking your time to help me with this. It is appreciated and I can tell that you are a good instructor.

In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)

I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back. To be fair, I did only try that for about 5 seconds before just trying to tap out with my feet, if I continued I might have been able to dislodge my arm but it was unlikely.

Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.

To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.

Yes, this does make sense actually. I was under the impression that moving my chin towards his hands would make it a tighter squeeze.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to contradict everything you're saying here, it is good advice. But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference? I did try to move my head in the choke, although I'm not sure if it would count as a chin tuck and made only the most minimal of movements. It probably didn't go like this, I was probably more likely trying to lift my head up instead of tucking my chin but here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.

Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.

 

[james0012]

Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.

Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.

*(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)

So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke? Who even names these things?

 

[kuniggety]

Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.

You learn a lot about body mechanics, physiology, and a little physics when studying BJJ... and that's along with the chess like strategies that you will eventually develop for baiting and responding to your opponents baits and openings.