GSP gets a Nick Cerio's Kenpo 4th dan trainer for his KICKS

[Headhunter]

Side note, I'm going to agree with headhunter that the kenpo/kempo styles I've seen have high kicks in the curriculum, but they're not trained as extensively as other styles. The ones I've been to have all had the attitude of "yes, they're in the curriculum and you should learn them, but don't focus on them. Any kicks you will be doing shouldn't be above chest (or waist depending on the instructor) height".

Edit: my main style, where I've trained under many different instructors from different dojos with that attitude, is an offshoot of nick cerio kenpo. And the techniques are different, but from what I've seen of american kenpo a lot of the philosophy and methods are the same.

Personally this is what I've seen. High kicks aren't taught but aren't forbidden. Like they tell you to do a roundhouse kick and unless specifically told to go to the knee or chest you can choose your height. But in the actual techniques there are no high kicks. I've always been told the only time to kick to the head in a real fight is if they've doubled over and there heads low. Also high kicks are good to develop your lower kicks because if you can get good power in a head kick your body or leg kick will be even harder

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh ok nice, anyway let's get back to some more positive notes, maybe those particular schools train kicks alot more than usual for WKC and quebec open and many tournaments they have. You guys are probably right about kicks and kenpo curiculum, i Noticed that nick cerio's added alot of karate shotokan and karaté kyokushin AFTER villari's and shaolin kenpo karate breakup, is it possible that the many kicks would have been emphasized with the addition of these katas in the style ?

which are :

Pinan 1 - Based on Taikyoku #1 of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 1 - Based on Heinan Sandan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 2 - Based on Heinan Yondan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 3 - Creation of Nick Cerio, based on Heinan Series from Kyokushin Kai

Bassaï Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Empi - Form from Shotokan Karate
Konku Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Goju Shi Ho - Form from Shotokan Karate
Sanchin - Traditional Karate form

what do you guys think ? there's quite a couple of those that use high kicks, while the shotokan katas are not required anymore to progress in the style, they still were in the original curiculum

I know my offshoot (shaolin but not villari) included pinan 1, I learned Bassai Dai separately and definitely nothing similar to it in SKK. Going to have to look at the other ones-I had no idea that he added so many additional forms to the curriculum! I'm curious to see if any were also added to SKK as well, under different names.

 

[FireWalker]

lists of all his original forms taken from there :

MT:The Forms of Nick Cerio's Kenpo - Deluxe Martial Arts Forums


Kata - Origin
Blocking Form 1 - Stationary Blocking Set from Karazenpo Goshinjutsu
Blocking Form 2 - Creation of Nick Cerio, based on BF1 with addition of foot movement
Blocking Form 3 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF2 but with extensions of blocks
Blocking Form 4 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF2 but with open handed blocks
Blocking Form 5 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF4 but with added hand strikes
Pinan 1 - Based on Taikyoku #1 of Kyokushin Kai
Pinan 2 - Same "I" pattern as Pinan 1 but with Cerio Combinations 2,3 and 4 incorporated
Pinan 3 - Same "I" pattern as Pinan 1 but with Cerio Combinations 5,6,7 and 8 incorporated
Cat 1 - Based on Heinan Sandan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 2 - Based on Heinan Yondan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 3 - Creation of Nick Cerio, based on Heinan Series from Kyokushin Kai
Circle of the Tiger - Based on Katas 3,4 and 5 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Circle of the Leopard - Based on Kata 2 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Circle of the Panther - Based on Kata 7 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Statue of the Crane - Based on Kata 8 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Hansuki - Form presented to Nick Cerio by GM Bill Chun Sr.
Lin Wan Kune - Form presented to Nick Cerio by Sifu Gan Fong Chin
Bassaï Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Empi - Form from Shotokan Karate
Konku Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Goju Shi Ho - Form from Shotokan Karate
Sanchin - Traditional Karate form
Cerio No Kon Sho - Bo Form created by Nick Cerio
Cerio No Kon Dai - Bo Form created by Nick Cerio
Shushi No Kon Sho - Traditional Bo form (Master Shushi)
Suji No Kon Sho - Traditional Bo form
Kane Gawa Ni Cho Gama - Traditional Kama form
Matsu Higa No Sai - Traditional Sai form
Hama Higa No Tonfa - Traditional Tonfa form

 

[FireWalker]

since we were discussing kenpos and high kick, very interesting kata from the second highest NCK in quebec province :

people that don't like kicks will be disapointed LOL

 

[KenpoDave]

Also if I wanted a guy to train my kicks I would not pick a kenpo guy. Kenpo is not a kicking style especially for Mma kicks. Most kenpo kicks are to the groin

LOL.

 

[FireWalker]

LOL.

So you agree with him KenpoDave ? with all the kenpo substyles there is, i'm surprised someone could make such a broad statement.

 

[KenpoDave]

So you agree with him KenpoDave ? with all the kenpo substyles there is, i'm surprised someone could make such a broad statement.

No, I disagree. That’s why I laughed.

 

[FireWalker]

No, I disagree. That’s why I laughed.

lol, thanks, basically, headhunter hijacked my thread and tried to tell me i was dumb when i was just telling the truth.

This guy is a nick cerio kenpo 4th dan, and he trains GSP for his kick, he has no other martial arts behind him, iwas just proud to say this to kenpo people here cuz i think GSP is a good martial artist, but looks like some people will always be hostile or try to make you feel stupid theres no kick useful to mma in kenpo, go back to where u come from, wow. i guess he's a headhunter for real heh ?

i think he tried to box us into his own substyle which clearly has no high kick, people got to keep an open mind about all of this.

it's like saying theres no elbow hit or throw in karaté, people that know karaté knows there are lots of substyle with jiu jitsu , elbows, knees.. etc..

 

[Flying Crane]

since we were discussing kenpos and high kick, very interesting kata from the second highest NCK in quebec province :

people that don't like kicks will be disapointed LOL

What is the use of this as a cane kata? Who is anticipated to be the person who would practice it and find it useful?

The reason I ask is this: the kata uses a lot of techniques that rely heavily on athleticism. Lots of high kicks, jumping kicks, and jumping-spinning kicks. Lots of them. In fact, I would say that is the bulk of the kata.

So clearly this is not a kata meant for an elderly or disabled person who could make use of a cane that he/she might already have a need for mobility purposes, for self defense.

The other option is that it is for a younger, athletically capable person. But the problem is, that person would not be carrying a cane unless it was a deliberate deception. And honestly, I do not believe that tends to be done.

So the whole thing simply does not make sense.

So I ask: what good is this kata? Who would actually find it useful?

It could perhaps be modified to be simply a short stick or walking staff, something that might be carried on a hiking trip, for example. But when you use a cane of the type typically used by the elderly or the disabled, it becomes very...strange.

 

[FireWalker]

What is the use of this as a cane kata? Who is anticipated to be the person who would practice it and find it useful?

The reason I ask is this: the kata uses a lot of techniques that rely heavily on athleticism. Lots of high kicks, jumping kicks, and jumping-spinning kicks. Lots of them. In fact, I would say that is the bulk of the kata.

So clearly this is not a kata meant for an elderly or disabled person who could make use of a cane that he/she might already have a need for mobility purposes, for self defense.

The other option is that it is for a younger, athletically capable person. But the problem is, that person would not be carrying a cane unless it was a deliberate deception. And honestly, I do not believe that tends to be done.

So the whole thing simply does not make sense.

So I ask: what good is this kata? Who would actually find it useful?

It could perhaps be modified to be simply a short stick or walking staff, something that might be carried on a hiking trip, for example. But when you use a cane of the type typically used by the elderly or the disabled, it becomes very...strange.

Hahaha you are right my friend, it is a very good question, one that i cannot answer unfortunately but if i get to speak to this guy someday i'll tell him, what you say sir makes alot of sense haha, theres even a flying kick, i don't think a disabled person could do that hahaha

he should probably change the weapon he use

 

[FireWalker]

i love how you analyzed it and the words you have used epic, haha i love it deliberate deception

 

[Headhunter]

lol, thanks, basically, headhunter hijacked my thread and tried to tell me i was dumb when i was just telling the truth.

This guy is a nick cerio kenpo 4th dan, and he trains GSP for his kick, he has no other martial arts behind him, iwas just proud to say this to kenpo people here cuz i think GSP is a good martial artist, but looks like some people will always be hostile or try to make you feel stupid theres no kick useful to mma in kenpo, go back to where u come from, wow. i guess he's a headhunter for real heh ?

i think he tried to box us into his own substyle which clearly has no high kick, people got to keep an open mind about all of this.

it's like saying theres no elbow hit or throw in karaté, people that know karaté knows there are lots of substyle with jiu jitsu , elbows, knees.. etc..

Making up stuff again I see...

 

[FireWalker]

Making up stuff again I see...

not at all bro look at the facts :

1 - i came here saying GSP got a nick cerio's kenpo 4th dan as a trainer for his kicking, matter of fact i verified and he has not trained in any other martial ars.

2 - You came here very dimissive of what i was saying with the i know better attitude and told me you wouldn't take a kenpo trainer for your kicking cuz kenpo does not have nice kicking for MMA, i told you so what, you don't know better than GSP and his crew to choose a trainer do you ?

3 - so basically you brushed all i was saying aside, just by the fact that in YOUR training in YOUR kenpo style ( style that you never precised ) has no kicks usefull to MMA in YOUR opinion.

4 - have you read the articles about GSP and this guy ? they've been training for years now, don't you think if it wasn't the right guy they would still be training ? why do i bring the articles as proof here and your still dismissive of my whole post, where are your facts ?!

proof is in the pudding bro, i don't wanna sound offensive, but i trust GSP to find someone to train him more than i trust you for MMA.

Now before you just change the subject or try to deny and dodge, try to adress this post as honestly as you can and maybe you will realize u just hijacked this thread with your own opinion and in your own reality, your opinion vs the facts i choose the facts

thanks

 

[Headhunter]

not at all bro look at the facts :

1 - i came here saying GSP got a nick cerio's kenpo 4th dan as a trainer for his kicking, matter of fact i verified and he has not trained in any other martial ars.

2 - You came here very dimissive of what i was saying with the i know better attitude and told me you wouldn't take a kenpo trainer for your kicking cuz kenpo does not have nice kicking for MMA, i told you so what, you don't know better than GSP and his crew to choose a trainer do you ?

3 - so basically you brushed all i was saying aside, just by the fact that in YOUR training in YOUR kenpo style ( style that you never precised ) has no kicks usefull to MMA in YOUR opinion.

4 - have you read the articles about GSP and this guy ? they've been training for years now, don't you think if it wasn't the right guy they would still be training ? why do i bring the articles as proof here and your still dismissive of my whole post, where are your facts ?!

proof is in the pudding bro, i don't wanna sound offensive, but i trust GSP to find someone to train him more than i trust you for MMA.

Now before you just change the subject or try to deny and dodge, try to adress this post as honestly as you can and maybe you will realize u just hijacked this thread with your own opinion and in your own reality, your opinion vs the facts i choose the facts

thanks

Quote me anywhere where I used the word dumb. Lol you still seem to think I care about this at all...why do you think I care if he's training with some random guy. I couldn't care less. Also high jacking a thread is where you talk about a subject completely unrelated. Everything j spoke about related to what you said.

Thanks "bro"

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Quote me anywhere where I used the word dumb. Lol you still seem to think I care about this at all...why do you think I care if he's training with some random guy. I couldn't care less. Also high jacking a thread is where you talk about a subject completely unrelated. Everything j spoke about related to what you said.

Thanks "bro"

I dont really care either way, but he didn't suggest you said dumb in any of what you quote. He did earlier, but not in your quote.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

lists of all his original forms taken from there :

MT:The Forms of Nick Cerio's Kenpo - Deluxe Martial Arts Forums


Kata - Origin
Blocking Form 1 - Stationary Blocking Set from Karazenpo Goshinjutsu
Blocking Form 2 - Creation of Nick Cerio, based on BF1 with addition of foot movement
Blocking Form 3 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF2 but with extensions of blocks
Blocking Form 4 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF2 but with open handed blocks
Blocking Form 5 - Creation of Nick Cerio, BF4 but with added hand strikes
Pinan 1 - Based on Taikyoku #1 of Kyokushin Kai
Pinan 2 - Same "I" pattern as Pinan 1 but with Cerio Combinations 2,3 and 4 incorporated
Pinan 3 - Same "I" pattern as Pinan 1 but with Cerio Combinations 5,6,7 and 8 incorporated
Cat 1 - Based on Heinan Sandan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 2 - Based on Heinan Yondan of Kyokushin Kai
Cat 3 - Creation of Nick Cerio, based on Heinan Series from Kyokushin Kai
Circle of the Tiger - Based on Katas 3,4 and 5 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Circle of the Leopard - Based on Kata 2 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Circle of the Panther - Based on Kata 7 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Statue of the Crane - Based on Kata 8 of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
Hansuki - Form presented to Nick Cerio by GM Bill Chun Sr.
Lin Wan Kune - Form presented to Nick Cerio by Sifu Gan Fong Chin
Bassaï Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Empi - Form from Shotokan Karate
Konku Daï - Form from Shotokan Karate
Goju Shi Ho - Form from Shotokan Karate
Sanchin - Traditional Karate form
Cerio No Kon Sho - Bo Form created by Nick Cerio
Cerio No Kon Dai - Bo Form created by Nick Cerio
Shushi No Kon Sho - Traditional Bo form (Master Shushi)
Suji No Kon Sho - Traditional Bo form
Kane Gawa Ni Cho Gama - Traditional Kama form
Matsu Higa No Sai - Traditional Sai form
Hama Higa No Tonfa - Traditional Tonfa form

Going through this (keep in mind I left the system as a 1st degree. There may be first degree bb forms or higher I do not know):

The blocking forms I am fairly certain my style, and all of villari shaolin kempo, has. Same with the pinans and cats (the cats looked a bit different, I dont know if villari taught them differently, or my offshoot did, but they were similar enough that I recognize them as the same),

Circle of the tiger we practiced. Circle of the leopard I couldn't find a video of. Circle of the panther seems to start as 10 point blocking then part of stature of the crane, then go through a succession of combinations. I never learned it as one, but I assume thats because I learned each part separately.

The shotokan karate ones I learned from a different style of kenpo and I can say that villari's didn't teach them. Cerio no kon sho we learned as-is, same with no kon dai (we actually learn that first). I cant comment on the kama/sai/tonfa forms since, while I learned them, I don't remember them well enough to comment.

There are around 7 other forms beyond whats listed to earn blackbelt in villaris (and its offshoots) systems. There are more in the system overall (ie: hansuki). When you include the chinese forms that raises it a lot too, but I'm nice enough not to add that comparison

So, overall, at least at 1st degree the shotokan forms are the only ones missing, but there are other froms to take their place. In Cerio kenpo, do you have kenpo/SD combos/1steps as well? If so, what are those labelled as?

 

[punisher73]

What is the use of this as a cane kata? Who is anticipated to be the person who would practice it and find it useful?

The reason I ask is this: the kata uses a lot of techniques that rely heavily on athleticism. Lots of high kicks, jumping kicks, and jumping-spinning kicks. Lots of them. In fact, I would say that is the bulk of the kata.

So clearly this is not a kata meant for an elderly or disabled person who could make use of a cane that he/she might already have a need for mobility purposes, for self defense.

The other option is that it is for a younger, athletically capable person. But the problem is, that person would not be carrying a cane unless it was a deliberate deception. And honestly, I do not believe that tends to be done.

So the whole thing simply does not make sense.

So I ask: what good is this kata? Who would actually find it useful?

It could perhaps be modified to be simply a short stick or walking staff, something that might be carried on a hiking trip, for example. But when you use a cane of the type typically used by the elderly or the disabled, it becomes very...strange.

I thought the same thing when watching it. I guess if you are walking with your grandpa and you get mugged, you can take his cane to defend the both of you in that manner. About the only thing I saw, FOR ME, that I would apply/use was using the cane as a point of balance while kicking.

The cane was used mainly as a long range strking weapon in the video, FOR ME, I also would have liked to have seen more grappling "in close" applications using the hook to manipulate the attacker(s).

But, to each their own.

 

[Acronym]

Side note, I'm going to agree with headhunter that the kenpo/kempo styles I've seen have high kicks in the curriculum, but they're not trained as extensively as other styles. The ones I've been to have all had the attitude of "yes, they're in the curriculum and you should learn them, but don't focus on them. Any kicks you will be doing shouldn't be above chest (or waist depending on the instructor) height".

.

What about Thompons lead leg side kicks and stance, is that Kempo or more likely something he worked out by himself? It seems Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis also departed from traditional Karate and simply did what suited their fighting style.