Grappling with someone who is gay

[Kempojujutsu]

This is not a gay bash thread, but how would you act if someone came in wanted to grapple and said maybe afterwards he was gay. Would you want to grapple with them again, or would you find a reason not to grapple with them.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

This is not a gay bash thread, but how would you act if someone came in wanted to grapple and said maybe afterwards he was gay. Would you want to grapple with them again, or would you find a reason not to grapple with them.
Bob :asian:

Are you grappling with an American? Does this American have
the same rights as you? Other than what goes on in his/her
bedroom, is he/she really any different than you? What kind of
thoughts go through your head when grappling a woman that
you find attractive? Do you think this woman would be thinking
the same thoughts YOU would be thinking while wrestling a gay
person of the same sex as you? Is it possible that you might one
day have to fight a gay person in the street? Is it possible that
by you grappling a gay person, that they learned a little bit more
than they did before they grappled you, and therefore could
defend themselves against an unitiated attack? Possibly a life
saving attack? Is it possible that the gay person you grappled
with might end up saving the life of someone you know and love?
Maybe a family member?

 

[Hollywood1340]

Kiddies,
Well said Kirk! Personaly I would consider this a non issue. I'm here to train the martial arts. That is all.

 

[hand2handCombat]

i think he just meant to ask how you would feel. i personally would fell akward and wouldnt want to.

kenpojujitsu even said it wasnt a gay bash, so why bring up those quiestions about being equal and american and all??

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by hand2handCombat

i think he just meant to ask how you would feel. i personally would fell akward and wouldnt want to.

kenpojujitsu even said it wasnt a gay bash, so why bring up those quiestions about being equal and american and all??

why would you feel awkward? Would you feel akward with a
woman? Do you know that you're THAT attractive to a gay
person? I understand it's not a gay "bash" per se, but if you
and he didn't feel that there was something wrong with being
gay, or you coming into physical contact with someone gay, then
the question would never have been posed, would it?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I would respect someone who was honest, weather it was the answer I like or not. There are probably more people who would say they have some kind of injury or come up with a lame reason not to grapple. And if it matters I have a cousin that is openly gay. I don't hate him or do I bash his life style. If he every asked for me to show him some stuff weather grappling or not I would show him. I believe you need to read the question a little more before you respone.
Bob :soapbox:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, been there, done that.

Years ago I got hit with a double whammy. Did some psudo-wrestling (you know that stuff ya do when ya think ya know stuff, but havent had a single class yet) with a guy who was training. He went to college with my then GF and we'd all hung out a bit. Afterwards, he dropped 2 bombs on me.
1- he was gay. This wasn't a big deal then, even less of one now adays.

2- he had the hots for me. This part was a bit disturbing. It would have been different if we hadn't just been wrestling.

I've got no problems with same-gender relationships. This just was too much for me at 18.

To answer the question:
Would I grapple with him if I knew he was 'gay'? Probably.
Would I grapple with him if I knew he was attracted to me? Probably not.

:asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Thanks Kaith, I would probably say the same thing. If he was gay no problem with the grappling thing. But if he had the hots for me, it would be very difficult (not a deffent NO) but it would be in the back of your mind.
Bob :asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Kirk



why would you feel awkward? Would you feel akward with a
woman? Do you know that you're THAT attractive to a gay
person? I understand it's not a gay "bash" per se, but if you
and he didn't feel that there was something wrong with being
gay, or you coming into physical contact with someone gay, then
the question would never have been posed, would it?

Kirk,

You totally
a) Did not answer or address the question. Twice.
b) went out of your way to attack the author.

I'm surprised.

Like Mr. Parker said at the seminar you and I attended, to paraphrase, "the fact that you went there so quickly surprises me."

Kempojujutsu,

I think I would make an excuse (out of politeness) to find ways not to work with them anymore. I would be waiting for them to give me an more open opportunity to say "Because I don't want to wrestle with you because you said you were gay." Or something like that.

However, Kirk brought up some good points and I have been in situations before where I didn't act like I thought I might. It would depend on the situation and how it came up later I guess. Since you didn't say how the issue might be brought up later, you leave a lot to the imagination.

Based on that thought I must reiterate that it depends on the circumstances but that given the choice I would avoid the situation as I don't go to Gay bars or anywhere else that I might run into these guys, I would not expect them to go out of their way to run into me and that might be cause for suspicion again depending on how the issue was addressed to begin with.
:shrug:

I think Kirk might have enough material to start another thread. Mr. Speakman said in a seminar once that he wasn't much interested in NHB events himself because of the greater risk than in the past that you can get diseases from contact with blood and that by extension, while biting someone on the street might be a good way to defend yourself, it could give you AIDS or something else so that he would discourage that practice as well. So I think maybe there is another thread's worth of material about fighting to avoid contact with blood and its associated diseases if we want to go there.

 

[arnisador]

I used to train naval and Marine Corps officers in the early 1990s. (This would be more impressive if what I was training them in had the slightest connection to the martial arts.) As the "gays in the military" issue raged it was often discussed by my students. Most of my naval officer students couldn't have cared less about the issue but a few were strongly against it and often brought it up. But I'll never forget the Marine Corps major who surprised me by being thoroughly indifferent about the matter. He said:

"It don't matter to me--they're gonna do what I tell 'em to do either way."

That is similar to my opinion about this matter--if they're a serious student, I couldn't possibly care less; if they're not a serious student, then I don't want to grapple with them no matter what their sexual orientation is. It's a non-issue. I hate to quote Bruce Lee as it's so overdone, but I remember reading in Joe Hyams' "Zen in the Martial Arts" about the author, Bruce Lee, and Sterling Silliphant discussing the difference between someone helping you spend your time and someone who wastes your time. I want training partners who help me spend my time. If they're not going to do that, I'd rather be with my family...or reading a book. A good student or training partner is something to be valued!

Kaith Rustaz wrote:

he had the hots for me. This part was a bit disturbing.

Having met Kaith, I am forced to concur.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Based on that thought I must reiterate that it depends on the circumstances but that given the choice I would avoid the situation as I don't go to Gay bars or anywhere else that I might run into these guys, I would not expect them to go out of their way to run into me and that might be cause for suspicion again depending on how the issue was addressed to begin with.

Yup, I've never been to the mall, the grocery store, the library, the hardware store, the movies, downtown or any other 'gay' places either. I seriously doubt that gangs of flaming homosexuals are roaming the countryside. "We all took a vote, we want -you-!"

I was at a seminar where I knew there was a number of same-gender relationships. Was no big deal. They are people too. Get over it folks.

Then again, maybe I'm just weird. Course, I also hang out with Goths, Pagans, Wiccans and other such folk. (though the Trekkies scare me)


Now, on to the important part here....Blood. That would scare me. Good solid crack on the jaw, and you're not only bleeding, but opened up. Knife fighting more so. So what happens when both you and your opponent are cut up and covered in each others crimson? You pray to whatever you believe in that you are both clean. No AIDS, no hepetitis, etc. Too many diseases can be spread by fluids. AIDS isn't a 'gay' worry...its everyones worry. I've trained with folks who freaked the moment a single drop of blood appeared. We all have to be careful.

Peace.
:asian:

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz




Now, on to the important part here....Blood. That would scare me. Good solid crack on the jaw, and you're not only bleeding, but opened up. Knife fighting more so. So what happens when both you and your opponent are cut up and covered in each others crimson? You pray to whatever you believe in that you are both clean. No AIDS, no hepetitis, etc. Too many diseases can be spread by fluids. AIDS isn't a 'gay' worry...its everyones worry. I've trained with folks who freaked the moment a single drop of blood appeared. We all have to be careful.

Peace.
:asian:

On the gay stuff. Sexual preferenses should be held out of the dojo, since all are equal in the dojo.

Concerning the AIDS thing. The HIV virus is not an atktiv virus, in that sense it can't swin, or try to move. So, so long your bleeding, the changes are very, very, very small for you to catch HIV. The only , proven way, to get HIV from blood, is a transfusion. Sexual contact is different, since sperm will try and penetrat everything it gets into contact with.

/Yari

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have done it , back in the days when I was young enough to grapple. He was a close friend and he never trie dto hide the fack of his sexual prefrence.
Yes, I felt very akward the first time. Right up to the point he made me tape out for the third time. After that I got into the rythem of what we where doing, because he was putting a big hurt on me. He was one of the finest grapplers I have ever known.
I once asked him about his being gay and grappleing(remember we where good friends and could discuss things without any problems) he told me it was like my practiceing karate. He didn't think about anything but the holds , counters, etc. Grappleing was his art and he was a professional in all approches to it.
I will teach anyone and practice with about anyone. I don't ask they dont have to tell I dont care their life outside of practice is their buiness.
Shadow:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cdhall

Kirk,

You totally
a) Did not answer or address the question. Twice.
b) went out of your way to attack the author.

I'm surprised.

Like Mr. Parker said at the seminar you and I attended, to paraphrase, "the fact that you went there so quickly surprises me."

The question doesn't warrant an answer, that's what I was
getting at. Would this thread exist in a friendly manner if
he had asked "Would y'all have a problem grappling with a
black guy?"

The point I'm trying to make is that is shouldn't matter
whatsoever.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Earlier you stated that the original poster wouldn't have a problem grappling a girl that he thought was hot, however, you didn't address the fact that the girl might have a problem with it.
I know several women who won't spar, grapple, whatever you want to call it, with certain guys because they don't feel comfortable. The fact is that some people don't feel comfortable "rolling" with someone who may find them physically attractive. It presents a number of emotional and intellectual variables that you shouldn't have to concern yourself with in a training environment.

You made the statement that you don't want to work out with someone who would waste your time. Regardless of whether your hangups with homosexualty are warranted or not, if it affects your mental state then you are wasting your time. You aren't devoting your entire "self" to your training. Sexual Preference doesn't negate your humanity, but it shouldn't be a topic of open discussion in your respective "schools".

The fact that the individual told his training partner that he was gay says something. Some individuals use this as a way to test the water, so to speak. If your okay with this than why not push further. This may not be the case 100% of the time but it's a possibility.

You must realize that regardless of whether or not you think these issues should exist, they do. Therefore the best way to deal with them is to offer guidance not reproach. If someone had a problem grappling with a black guy (as you so blatantly mentioned in your post), then you should approach the situation as a caring individual to deal with the problem, not tell them their wrong (regardless of whether they are or not).

 

[arnisador]

Kenpo Yahoo, I think you're conflating several posts.

I think it's easy to see that some women might prefer not to grapple with men, or some men might prefer not to grapple with gay men. I think it's a shame both ways but people feel as they do. As for me, all I want is a serious training partner.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by Kirk


The question doesn't warrant an answer, that's what I was
getting at. Would this thread exist in a friendly manner if
he had asked "Would y'all have a problem grappling with a
black guy?"

The point I'm trying to make is that is shouldn't matter
whatsoever.

Kirk, not everyone thinks the same. You might not have a problem with a gay person, I might not have a problem with a gay person. But lets say one of your parents don't like this gay person. Or the entire class doesn't want to work out with this person. Now you have a major problem. How would you handle this problem.
Bob

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu



Kirk, not everyone thinks the same. You might not have a problem with a gay person, I might not have a problem with a gay person. But lets say one of your parents don't like this gay person. Or the entire class doesn't want to work out with this person. Now you have a major problem. How would you handle this problem.
Bob

Well I think it's obvious that I wouldn't give a damn. Kenpo Yahoo
said:

"You must realize that regardless of whether or not you think these issues should exist, they do. Therefore the best way to deal with them is to offer guidance not reproach. If someone had a problem grappling with a black guy (as you so blatantly mentioned in your post), then you should approach the situation as a caring individual to deal with the problem, not tell them their wrong (regardless of whether they are or not)."

But history tells us that THAT is exactly what we should do. If
anything will deystroy a country, it's hate and prejudice. (I'm
NOT implying you hate anyone) This is an important issue for
me. Did Rosa Parks handle her lack of civil rights with guidance,
or reproach? Reproach doesn't mean violence, or hate, but I
do feel it means in your face statement of THIS IS WRONG. How
far have we as a society come since she refused to leave her
seat? It wasn't all that long ago, that discussions of dancing,
touching, drinking after, sitting on the same toilet seat of
someone of a "minority" race was a discussion among w.a.s.ps.
I'm all about freedom baby! All citizens deserve the priviledge of
living free.

That being said, it seems that you want me to comment on how
I feel that those who DO have a problem rolling on the floor with
gay people should handle it. Well if it IS a problem for you, for
whatever justification you have, then stand up and be a man
about it. Publicly state "I will not wrestle that gay man". If you're
that steadfast on your convictions, then let it be known, and then
let the instructor handle you for your convictions. If you can't
handle that, then get on the mat and shut up.

You all think I'm approaching this in a harsh way. The fact of the
matter is all that have posted here, so far have my respect. I
don't recall any of you being involved in flame wars or trolling
on here. But I am passionate, because I don't want my country
going down in flames started by it's own citizens.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador

As for me, all I want is a serious training partner. [/B]

Amen to that, and a serious teacher.

Kirk
I feel that those who DO have a problem rolling on the floor with
gay people should handle it. Well if it IS a problem for you, for
whatever justification you have, then stand up and be a man
about it. Publicly state "I will not wrestle that gay man". If you're
that steadfast on your convictions, then let it be known, and then
let the instructor handle you for your convictions. If you can't
handle that, then get on the mat and shut up.

I agree. If something is a problem, say it. Don't beat around the bush, or (as we say in Denmark)..don't wrap people up in cotten.
The most respectful way of handfling people is giving your feedback, as long as its not patronizing.

I think it's a modern flaw that we try to think for each other. Like... oh he's black, so I can't say black jokes, or he is disabled so I can't talk to him. So be honest: "Do you mind if I told a racial joke" or " I'd like to talk to you, but I'm not sure what to talk about." Pretty straight forward, no hidden intent, and then your really being honest.

/Yari

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Anisador: Oops, your right, I'm guilty of conflation.

To everyone else:

I agree with whoever said you should stand up and be a man about it, don't make excuses. Use some judgement though, if you feel that it might put that individual into an akward situation, be respectful enough to address the problem in a private setting.
You wouldn't want to be responsible for making that individual quit because you made him feel stupid in front of the class.

Kirk:

I understand your strong convictions about this topic. Almost every great Civilization came to ruin from the inside (its domestic problems). Sure most were destroyed by an outside presence, but it was only because the internal dissension had destroyed its social fiber. Rosa Parks was about the fair treatment of "colored" people, and indeed all people, and the fight for their civil liberties. I don't see how telling someone that you are uncomfortable working out with them infringes upon their civil liberties. Afterall, your not forcing them to work in the designated "GAY" corner of the school, if you were that would be an infringement of civil liberties. I think if the people who are involved can sit down, be up front, and honest then the situation will play out in a respectable manner. I just get tired of hearing people tell others they are wrong without looking further to find out why they feel that way. By doing so you could possibly help that individual overcome that particular social stigma. Helping one person is the first step to safe-guarding against the destruction of our nations social fiber. Imagine what our country would be like if everyone tried this.

Sorry to get into all this, but this has by far been the most intelligent string I've seen on this forum. I commend everyone here for being able to discuss this without "blowing up"