Good Article On Ground Fighting Stats

HKphooey

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Not sure if posted before or not...

Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, Jan 2007


Going to the Ground: Lessons from Law Enforcement

By Chris Leblanc
Copyright © Chris Leblanc 2007. All rights reserved.

Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) go “hands on” in both armed and unarmed physical confrontations more often than perhaps any other armed professionals. Within the self-defense and martial arts communities, this naturally has led to a great deal of interest in the experiences of officers in physical encounters. And no other information coming from the law enforcement community has received as much attention as an elusive set of statistics that purportedly show that 90% (or more) of physical altercations “go to the ground.”
The responsibility for the popularizing of this statistic is most often laid at the feet of the famous Gracie family, proponents of the art of Brazilian jujitsu, and dismissed as a shameless attempt at marketing themselves and their family fighting system which, not coincidentally, emphasizes fighting on the ground.
Unfortunately, I have yet to see a single source within the martial arts community -- affiliated with the Gracies or otherwise -- that accurately cites the actual study, or that does not either accept the statistics (or repudiate them) almost wholesale. If the constantly repeated Internet forum discussions and “letters to the editor” to various trade magazines are any indication, the topic has actually become an emotional argument for some. That argument usually finds those who practice Brazilian jujitsu or a similar system with a strong ground fighting component supporting the stats, and those who practice an art with minimal or no ground grappling denying their relevance. After personally posting the information below on several Internet forums with a wide dissemination, I still see the statistics often misquoted, misunderstood, and misapplied. I have seen them dismissed as pertaining “only to law enforcement,” and explained away as not offering lessons for self-defense.
 
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terryl965

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Very interesting statistics, I knew LEO's went to the ground alot and I see where getting tackle is less than I would think.
 

David43515

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What I got from the article was that more often than not, it`s the officer that takes it to the ground. Police are trained to take people down because it`s easier to control and cuff them there. People respond the way they train.
 

Flying Crane

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Another thing to keep in mind is that police encounters are probably the only such encounters that actually have any kind of statistics. Nobody is in a position to keep statistics on what happens in a schoolyard fight or a barroom altercation or the local bully beating up the kids after school. Nobody is collecting that data and looking for patterns. Unless a police report is filed, this information is never recorded.
 

Steve

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I agree with what's already been said and will add that everyone reacts differently. I know that every fight I ever got into while in school ended up on the ground but I saw plenty that didn't. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. If self defense is your goal and you don't train in all ranges of combat, you're not fully preparing yourself.
 

blindsage

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This is a great post and I agree that having some kind of ground fighting/grappling knowledge is necessary to be well rounded, but I've said this before, the issue of being trained in 'all ranges' seems to be brought up most frequently by folks really into ground grappling, but they never seem to advocate for other ranges as hard as for their own. Well rounded fighters should have training in all ranges, but this includes long weapons range, short weapons range, kicking, hand striking, elbow and knee, trapping, standing grappling and throwing, as well as ground fighting technique. Many BJJ and wrestling advocates lack in these ranges, and many MMA fighters lack in some of these as well. I just think if you advocate for truly being trained in all ranges of combat, then you should equally advocate for all ranges of combat.

But I would like to emphasize again my thanks for posting this article, it's great to actually see it.
 

Steve

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This is a great post and I agree that having some kind of ground fighting/grappling knowledge is necessary to be well rounded, but I've said this before, the issue of being trained in 'all ranges' seems to be brought up most frequently by folks really into ground grappling, but they never seem to advocate for other ranges as hard as for their own. Well rounded fighters should have training in all ranges, but this includes long weapons range, short weapons range, kicking, hand striking, elbow and knee, trapping, standing grappling and throwing, as well as ground fighting technique. Many BJJ and wrestling advocates lack in these ranges, and many MMA fighters lack in some of these as well. I just think if you advocate for truly being trained in all ranges of combat, then you should equally advocate for all ranges of combat.

But I would like to emphasize again my thanks for posting this article, it's great to actually see it.
Blindsage, I'm not sure what you mean by advocating as hard for other ranges. We all make choices in our training, but it's really very simple. If you are training for self defense, you should prepare as much as possible to defend yourself at any range. How you can infer that this is a biased statement is a little confusing to me.

The critical point being, IF you train for self defense. If I trained for self defense, working multiple ranges would be critical. I am the first to admit that I don't train for self defense. I am not training to defend myself. So, competitive BJJ is fine for me. Does that mean I believe there's no self-defense application? No. Just that if I am focused primarily on self defense, I have gaps in my skillset that I would need to shore up.
 

celtic_crippler

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I've read that report before.

The whole "90%" deal was marketing perpetuated by the Gracies as the MMA was gaining in popularity.

The report does nothing to prove that "fights" go to the ground, it just proves that police officer's in LA take a suspect to the ground around 60% of the time in order to apprehend them. Arrests are not fights.

That's not an argument against learning ground skills, however. It's just hype from those of a particular "school of thought." There's just as much hype from the the "stand-up guys". Personally, I think the ground-game is just another range of combat and should be trained just like all the rest.

If anybody believes there's some super-martial art where if you learn all its secrets you'll be invincible...then you're in for a rude awakening. LOL
 

blindsage

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Blindsage, I'm not sure what you mean by advocating as hard for other ranges. We all make choices in our training, but it's really very simple. If you are training for self defense, you should prepare as much as possible to defend yourself at any range. How you can infer that this is a biased statement is a little confusing to me.

The critical point being, IF you train for self defense. If I trained for self defense, working multiple ranges would be critical. I am the first to admit that I don't train for self defense. I am not training to defend myself. So, competitive BJJ is fine for me. Does that mean I believe there's no self-defense application? No. Just that if I am focused primarily on self defense, I have gaps in my skillset that I would need to shore up.
I appreciate you clarifying your position and point. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intentions. I do still seem to see the 'all ranges' point coming mostly from ground fighters though, and often when they don't train for what they're commenting on.
 

Steve

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I appreciate you clarifying your position and point. Sorry if I misinterpreted your intentions. I do still seem to see the 'all ranges' point coming mostly from ground fighters though, and often when they don't train for what they're commenting on.
I think that might be because they are responding to someone who alleges something along the lines of, "I don't need to train grappling because I will never allow a fight to go to the ground." or, "I'll {insert deadly technique here} and that will be that." or perhaps, "No way I'm going to lie underneath a guy and let his friends kick me in the head." We've all heard these lame assertions. It's a logical response from a grappler to remind a striker that they're delusional if they think that fights don't end up on the ground.

For the record, though, I can't speak to everyone else's training. I personally don't train striking at all. I have no interest in doing so, but I do know MANY people with whom I train also train in other ranges and for self defense. We have many LEOs and soldiers at our school and their emphasis is different than mine; however, they train BJJ for fun and also to ensure that they have a working knowledge of ground fighting and defense.
 

MattJ

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David -

There are actually 2 studies in the OP. The Calibre Press study noted perps taking officers down:

Calibre Press Survival Seminar, 2003
In its April 2003 online newsletter, Calibre Press published results of a research project completed along with PPCT Management Systems. This project measured the other side of the equation, namely the frequency in which police officers were forced to the ground by attackers. About 1,400 cases were reported by officers attending the Calibre Press Street Survival Seminar. [EN3]
Respondents were asked whether an attacker had ever attempted to force them to the ground. More than half (52%) reported this had occurred. Of that number, 60% reported that their attackers had been successful in taking them down. Of the 60% taken down, 52% reported receiving ground control training prior to the event, and 40% after.


At the time of the assault, most of the assailants were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. Most of the takedown incidents occurred during domestic and other disturbance calls, or during traffic stops. These are the same situations in which the majority of officers are assaulted and killed each year (31% during disturbances, accounting for 15.6% of officer deaths, followed by traffic stops, accounting for 15.1% of officer deaths).
  • 45% of the attempts to take the officer down occurred during interviews
  • 40% occurred at handcuffing
  • 10% at escort
  • 5% during booking
Of course, this is still kind of vague, as it doesn't mention how often any particular officer was taken down, etc, but still interesting.

Here's another related link, fwiw:

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/
 

David43515

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I try to train all ranges. But I`ll be the first to admit I don`t train them equally. I focus most of my training on the ranges and techniques I use most often, because hopefully if I have to use them they`ll be polished enough to be fight enders.
My kicking has gone down hill over the years as I`ve lot flexability. I never did much ground work and I REALLY need to try to incorperate more into my workout. But my striking and standing grappling get better and smoother every year. I add alot of weapons work to the mix and it helped my reflexes alot. But yeah, I have big leaks that need to be shorn up.
 

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