Going from Kempo to Kenpo and Vice Versa

[Forever Training]

Hello all.

I am interested to know if anybody has attained a BB rank in SKK and then trained in Kenpo.

I wonder how similar the two styles really are and therefore how easy it is to cross train.

 

[Stargazer]

I've wondered the same thing. It will be interesting to see the replies. Congratulations on your BB in SKK and good luck on your path. It's awesome that you're looking to train/teach at a higher level. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Have you thought about starting your own school or program? Seems like you're envisioning a really cool curriculum.

 

[Forever Training]

I've wondered the same thing. It will be interesting to see the replies. Congratulations on your BB in SKK and good luck on your path. It's awesome that you're looking to train/teach at a higher level. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Have you thought about starting your own school or program? Seems like you're envisioning a really cool curriculum.

My BB has provided me with a foundation in which to build my MA skills an proficiency. I am several years and dan ranks away from considering a step in that direction. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[Yondanchris]

My first BB was in SKK then in 2010 I started taking lessons with Clark Cole ( Parker-Salantri lineage) in American Kenpo and am currently a 2nd Brown Belt. SKK gave me a decent foundation that AK has added to immensely. Consider SKK being a grade school education and American Kenpo being a 4 Year College Degree with the option to obtain Master's and Doctorate degrees afterward!

 

[Forever Training]

Chris, it sounds like you find Kenpo much more advanced than Kempo. Can you elaborate with some details?

 

[DavidCC]

I trained SKK for about 7-8 years, got to 2nd Brown, and taught for a few years as an assistant instructor. For the last 3 of those years, and the 3 since, I have trained in American Kenpo (specifically SubLevel Kenpo).

I found that very few of my basics were transferable: Stances were almost entirely different. Footwork was of course then different. USE OF stances was different within techniques. Blocks are executed differently, at different heights than in SKK. Strikes are taught in more detail in AK than in SKK, but were pretty much "the same".

SKK is so different from teacher to teacher... but at the school I was at, it was taught more by copying what the instructor did, than being taught specific methods of execution in terms of anatomy and movement. The AK instruction is much more detailed and technical - describing HOW to execute an inward block ("first extend your arm as you rotate the shoulder etc...") as opposed to the instructor standing in front of you, showing you an inward block, and then you copy what you think you saw... Not every AK school is the same either so that difference may not apply across all SKK and AK teachers.

I found AK's model of what is taught, when to teach it, and how it relates to the other material to be far superior to anything like that I ever saw in SKK. My teacher had a specific order in which his techs were taught, but there was not much of a "adding on" or a building upon previous material as much as it was just "ok here is the next thing". The SKK system had 26 techniques for a right punch. A handful of those techs came with some definitive reason to do that technique - "this one is for when he throws a left hook after the right" or "this one is for when he tries to kick you first". But mostly it was 20+ different responses to the same attack. Your mileage may vary, not all SKK is the same... but I surveyed a lot of SKK schools and it wasn't that much deeper in most places.

In the AK I am studying, every technique starts with an analysis of WHY it is happening. The psychology and motivation of the attacker. So while 2 techniques might appear to be addressing the same attack, there will be differences in response based on more subtle factors. And also on the skill level of the student. For example - Left hand lapel grab, right hand lapel grab are not addressed as mirror image movement because the psychology behind an attacker grabbing you with his strong hand, versus with his off-hand, is different. A guy who grabs you with his strong hand is not immediately planning to punch you... he may get to that, but if he was going to start with hitting you, he'd grab with his off hand and hit you with his strong side... and 90%of the time, that's his right hand.

Generally you will find AK uses a lot of well - defined vocabulary for ideas and principles and everything. SKK didn't seem to be quite as codified. More of an "oral tradition" whereas AK is "of the book".

 

[Forever Training]

David,

Thanks for the explanation. I can see why Chris sees it as a more advanced style. The analysis/explanation of body mechanics really appeals to me,
although I am sure not to everyone. Perhaps having achieved a BB helps to appreciate that level of detail.

Just like you, Dave, the white-black curriculum of my style of SKK consists of about the same 1-26 combinations (Kenpo calls techniques) all in
response to an attacker who is stepping forward with right foot and right front punch. And also a few overhead and side clubs, some animal
techniques, 5 Pinans, and 6 Katas (if you include Stature of the Crane). You are right about the method of instruction, at least in my case.
My instructor's method is to show and emulate, without much (if any) discussion of detailed body mechanics.

I am learning that the white-black curriculum of Ed Parker AK consists of about 154 base techniques of varying attacks, 96 extensions on some
of those techs, 3 short forms, 8 long forms + sets. It seems so much more thorough and precise from a content and explanation point of view.

Dave, I noticed from your website, your Sensei offers both SKK and Kenpo in the same dojo. Does he use a rotating curriculum for either style
as I describe in my original post? Also, did you ever get your BB in SKK?

 

[shima]

Let's not forget that there's two types of SKK as well..
Villari's Shaolin Kempo Karate (note the M) and Castro's Shaolin Kenpo Karate (with an N)

I've been studying the Castro branch of SKK for the past 3 years or so and love it. In comparison, we have an Arnis student who comes on the weekends to our dojo, but trains during the week at an AK school. From chatting with him the biggest difference with how he learns versus how we learn is that they learn everything as individual techniques with names for each etc.. we still learn a very similar number of techniques, but the big difference in our SKK is that our techniques are all part of our kata's. We're taught to be able to take what we need from a kata and use it, but we learn it all as kata's... so we have a ton more kata's to learn than my AK friend who has a ton more individual techniques. Just different ways of digesting defense moves If there were more hours in the day I'd love to take some AK classes, but as it is all my free time goes to teaching/learning/helping out at the SKK dojo I train at. Ultimately I like this style so much compared to others I've done, it's the one I'm going to stick with so I can open a child school under my instructor at some point.