GM JI Han Jae

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Hello Stuart,

And since our last discussion on this topic, almost a decade ago, do we have anything more definitive on either "Taoist Lee" or "Grandma"? Names? Locations? Others that trained with these two of such skill?

In relation to the kicking, it now appears that Kim Moo-Hong - at least according to the sources in this thread - may have had nothing to do with the kicking as it has been related for years...

And as far as the rank, the speed seems less relevant that the fact that the last three ranks, which are referred to by number and date as "RANK" were actually issued by students...

Just things for thought.

This is all I can gather and theorize from talking to GM and other senior Sinmoo masters.

It seems GM Ji and Kim worked together for less then a year as reported, however it's not clear who introduced what to the final kicking repertoire. Only Kim and Ji know for sure. They both were top Yawara students of Choi at that time and also were rivals in a sense. Ji says he learned the kick from Taoist Lee and from Choi (7 low kicks).


I believe due to lack of english GM Ji generically referred to the figures Taoist Lee and Grandma because both were Taoists. Lee was also a martial artists of unknown kind maybe native KMA. Its not clear if even GM Ji knows the exact style Taoist Lee practiced, Sam Rang Do maybe? GM Ji learned meditations and Chi Kung exercises from them and also a lot of self study. It also seems GM Ji was young when he encountered these Taoists and I'm not eve sure if etiquette allowed him to question them much.


There does seem some corroboration that GM Ji & Kim both received either their 7th from Choi through the KHA and at that time they were the highest ranked ever.
It doesn't really matter I think because GM JI went his own direction and did not follow GM Choi's system in the pure sense as we know.

Sorry no real new news.
 

iron_ox

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This is all I can gather and theorize from talking to GM and other senior Sinmoo masters.

It seems GM Ji and Kim worked together for less then a year as reported, however it's not clear who introduced what to the final kicking repertoire. Only Kim and Ji know for sure. They both were top Yawara students of Choi at that time and also were rivals in a sense. Ji says he learned the kick from Taoist Lee and from Choi (7 low kicks).


I believe due to lack of english GM Ji generically referred to the figures Taoist Lee and Grandma because both were Taoists. Lee was also a martial artists of unknown kind maybe native KMA. Its not clear if even GM Ji knows the exact style Taoist Lee practiced, Sam Rang Do maybe? GM Ji learned meditations and Chi Kung exercises from them and also a lot of self study. It also seems GM Ji was young when he encountered these Taoists and I'm not eve sure if etiquette allowed him to question them much.


There does seem some corroboration that GM Ji & Kim both received either their 7th from Choi through the KHA and at that time they were the highest ranked ever.
It doesn't really matter I think because GM JI went his own direction and did not follow GM Choi's system in the pure sense as we know.

Sorry no real new news.

As always Stuart, it is a pleasure to have you respond.

I would love to get some definitive information on the ranks, maybe soon.

I have always been surprised that only one person has ever claimed to have taught by Taoist Lee and "Grandma" - by the 1950's film was readily available, as we have several pics from that ear of training in Seoul, but nothing of either of these two...

I asked about the kicks becasue of the famous quote about the invention of spinning kicks, and was curious if it was a specific spin kick, or all spin kicks...

As always, thanks Stuart.
 

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Oh

He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.

GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.

I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.
 

iron_ox

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Oh

He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.

GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.

I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.

As always, thank you for your input.
 

chrispillertkd

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It's generally throughout the thread. There are quite a few posts where people just use "Ji" without any title (even a polite "Mr"). Maybe I'm just sensitive to the issue (being English rather than American; we have different things that push our buttons).

FWIW, it doesn't bother me (of course, I'm not a student under GM Ji, nor a Hapkidoin :) ). Look, in lots of scholarly works authors get referenced by their last names alone with no title. Same thing in the papers for politicians a lot of the time. It doesn't mean that the people doing so are purposefully trying to insult anyone. Generally, I'll use a title if a person is well known by it with some exceptions. For example, I don't call people "sensei" because they aren't my sensei. If a person is going to be so offended that someone who isn't their student doesn't use a specific title when talking about them then the problem is with them, IMO.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who recognize the mastery of a particular person to address them as Master even if they're in a different style. But is it required to do this?
I imagine some Hapkidoin from GM Choi's lineage find it annoying or even disrespectful that people from GM Ji's line refer to "Yawara" instead of Hapkido whenever they mention GM CHoi's art.

Pax,

Chris
 

andyjeffries

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Would you find it disturbing if people that represented your art were less than honest about their position, rank, etc etc?

I would but I would still refer to them by using their respectful title if it was given by someone appropriate. As I understand it from later posts GM Ji's at least 7th Dan from GM Choi, so surely he at least deserves a Master title rather than just surname? There are guys in the UK that I have heard obtained their current rank under less than ideal circumstances. However, I still use the title that they have earned if it's given from a recognised authority.

This thread in the Hapkido section is about someone that has had MULTIPLE things written that are far more than suspect.

And I have no knowledge about these things, so won't be getting involved in that. It just irks me as it seems very rude referring to someone that has undoubtedly been studying martial arts long enough to have a respectful title by just their surname. If people on here knew him personally and he'd said "it's fine, call me Han-jae" then I'd have no problem with them referring to him as "Han-jae", but unless that's the case then a title should be used even a "Mr" if you believed the rank and all their experience to be completely bogus.

From the rank listed on your signature I dare say you have been doing TKD a far bit; same with me and Hapkido. I think you need to re-read the tread again and see what some of us are getting at. A consistent, long standing, series of written information that is suspect - and in my opinion brings much of the art into question for those who might not have anything other than those articles/threads to rely upon for information.

I don't know GM Ji at all, nor do I know whether things written are true, false or a bit of both - however, I still think he has done enough to be referred to with respect, as would any senior martial artist.
 

andyjeffries

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FWIW, it doesn't bother me (of course, I'm not a student under GM Ji, nor a Hapkidoin :) ). Look, in lots of scholarly works authors get referenced by their last names alone with no title.

Are you seriously comparing an internet forum to a scholarly work ;-)

Same thing in the papers for politicians a lot of the time.

I think it depends on the paper. For example, the higher level newspapers generally use titles rather than just last names. For example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...is-party-over-referendum-on-Lords-reform.html

Conservative MP Peter Bone added: “We are told we can’t have a referendum on Europe because nobody is interested in it, which is nuts.
Mr Bone, MP for Wellingborough, said that the row “certainly could bring the coalition down” because feelings were running so high in the parliamentary party.

However, Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, is set to inflame emotions further
A source close to Mr Clegg said that the Deputy Prime Minister did “not see the need for any referendum – it was all in their manifestos”.

Tabloid papers may just use last names, but then again is that really where we're setting the standard for writing?

It doesn't mean that the people doing so are purposefully trying to insult anyone. Generally, I'll use a title if a person is well known by it with some exceptions. For example, I don't call people "sensei" because they aren't my sensei. If a person is going to be so offended that someone who isn't their student doesn't use a specific title when talking about them then the problem is with them, IMO.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon for people who recognize the mastery of a particular person to address them as Master even if they're in a different style. But is it required to do this?

I don't think it's required, but it's polite or at least if you don't recognise their title to at least be respectful and use Mr. Referring to someone by just their last name brings back memories of school when teachers would yell "Jones, why isn't your homework on my desk this time?". Very disrespectful to my ears (eyes).
 

chrispillertkd

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Are you seriously comparing an internet forum to a scholarly work ;-)


Ha, hardly. But that's my point. If people don't do it in reputable publications why would it be a big deal if they don't on the intrawebs? It's not a slight when someone who is at the top of their field is referred to by only their last name in a peer-reviewed publication.

I think it depends on the paper.

Of course it does. But the papers and reporters who don't use titles all the time to refer to politicians aren't being disrespectful simply because of that fact.

Tabloid papers may just use last names, but then again is that really where we're setting the standard for writing?

The Wall Street Journal is hardly a tabloid but it regularly refers to the President as "Mister Obama," "Mister Bush," etc. Americans are used to treating our politicians as what they are; people we vote in and out of office. If we don't like them we get rid of them. We also don't have a House of "Lords." It's a different view on things that developed in our culture and not calling someone "Master," especially when they aren't part of a system we study, is similar. It's not a slight in and of itself.

I don't think it's required, but it's polite or at least if you don't recognise their title to at least be respectful and use Mr. Referring to someone by just their last name brings back memories of school when teachers would yell "Jones, why isn't your homework on my desk this time?". Very disrespectful to my ears (eyes).

Sure, it's polite but it's certainly not the end of the word if it doesn't happen. It's not even necessarily a sign of disrespect. People point out all the time that MT has posters from different countries so try to be a little culturally sensitive.

You know, the funny thing is, I know a IX dan who doesn't like being referred to as a "Grand Master." He's told people not to call him that, in fact, and if anyone deserves the title he does (not least because of that attitude, IMNSHO). But if it's important for people to be referred to by a title then I'd do it for their sake. But that's just me.

Pax,

Chris
 

andyjeffries

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Ha, hardly. But that's my point. If people don't do it in reputable publications why would it be a big deal if they don't on the intrawebs? It's not a slight when someone who is at the top of their field is referred to by only their last name in a peer-reviewed publication.

Because in research papers it's the accepted norm, elsewhere it isn't.

Of course it does. But the papers and reporters who don't use titles all the time to refer to politicians aren't being disrespectful simply because of that fact. The Wall Street Journal is hardly a tabloid but it regularly refers to the President as "Mister Obama," "Mister Bush," etc.

But that's exactly my point - they refer to them as "Mister Obama" not just "Obama" or "Bush". I'd have no real issue if people referred to GM Ji as Mr Ji or even Ji, Han-Jae. It's the sole surname that I dislike.

Americans are used to treating our politicians as what they are; people we vote in and out of office. If we don't like them we get rid of them. We also don't have a House of "Lords." It's a different view on things that developed in our culture and not calling someone "Master," especially when they aren't part of a system we study, is similar. It's not a slight in and of itself.

As I said though, if you don't want to call someone Master or Grandmaster because they aren't part of your system that's fine, Mr Whatever is perfectly acceptable.

Sure, it's polite but it's certainly not the end of the word if it doesn't happen. It's not even necessarily a sign of disrespect.

It may not be intended that way, but sometimes unintended disrespect happens... We surely should extend politeness to everyone unless we're specifically intending to be impolite (or acknowledge/apologise afterwards if unintentional disrespect happens)?

People point out all the time that MT has posters from different countries so try to be a little culturally sensitive.

Ha ha ha! That's ironic! As we're referring to a Korean gentleman one would think that people would be more culturally sensitive and use his title, given that Koreans use titles MUCH more than westerners. I remember when learning basic Korean that you would have to use for example "Team chief Kim" or some such thing even though you'd never use that title in English. Korean culture is sensitive to the use of titles much more than western cultures:

http://www.ediplomat.com/np/cultural_etiquette/ce_kr.htm
* It is considered very impolite to address a Korean with his or her given name. Address Koreans using appropriate professional titles until specifically invited by your host or colleagues to use their given names.
* Americans should address a Korean with Mr., Mrs., Miss + family name; however, never address a high-ranking person or superior in this manner.

Now, I understand that not everyone understands this cultural difference, particularly members from different countries, but I'm not being culturally insensitive in pointing it out, I'm trying to help those that don't understand to become more culturally sensitive.

You know, the funny thing is, I know a IX dan who doesn't like being referred to as a "Grand Master." He's told people not to call him that, in fact, and if anyone deserves the title he does (not least because of that attitude, IMNSHO). But if it's important for people to be referred to by a title then I'd do it for their sake. But that's just me.

And I agree with this, if GM Ji didn't want to have a title used and has made that publicly known (or known to a small group of people as a public request) then fine. I'm also happy to use titles for people if they want it. But I think we should default to using a well accepted title or at least the more generic Mr unless we know otherwise.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread long enough. I'm sure we won't agree on the topic, but I just wanted to point it out and make my feelings known....
 

chrispillertkd

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Because in research papers it's the accepted norm, elsewhere it isn't.

The fact is, however, even in normal conversation in America calling someone by their last name isn't discourteous.

But that's exactly my point - they refer to them as "Mister Obama" not just "Obama" or "Bush". I'd have no real issue if people referred to GM Ji as Mr Ji or even Ji, Han-Jae. It's the sole surname that I dislike.

Then the best thing to do, I think, is lead by example.

Ha ha ha! That's ironic! As we're referring to a Korean gentleman one would think that people would be more culturally sensitive and use his title, given that Koreans use titles MUCH more than westerners.

And yet he lives in America, and has done so for decades. And the posters in question aren't Korean. Cultural sensitivity cuts both ways, doesn't it?

Now, I understand that not everyone understands this cultural difference, particularly members from different countries, but I'm not being culturally insensitive in pointing it out, I'm trying to help those that don't understand to become more culturally sensitive.

And I'm just pointing out to you that it's not necessarily a slight on their part.

Maybe I don't see something as little as this as being disrespectful because I've seen many times when people have come out and just insulted Gen. Choi. Worrying about the use of a title, to me, is quite minor.

Pax,

Chris
 
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zDom

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I think it depends on the paper. For example, the higher level newspapers generally use titles rather than just last names

It depends on what style book they go by, not whether they are a "higher level newspaper" or not.

Associated Press Style uses only surnames on second and subsequent references.




I write in AP style on a daily basis so if I have dropped a courtesy title here or there it should definitely not be read as a lack of respect.
 
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Kong Soo Do

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As a note, I've seen the JAMA use the last name without titles as well. Particularly if the title had been given previously and the person is referenced multiple times. I don't feel any disrespect was intended. The title was established and the rest is simply to have the article flow better.
 
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Oh

He does claim to have invented the spin heel kick. At the time it seems that early TSD was really Shotokan (no spin heel kick) and Tae Kyon did not use the spin kick eiher. His spin kick is also unique and looks a lot like Caparoia from Brazil and also similar to Indonisian Silat where they put their hand on the ground for support. Since that time there are many other variations that people do. In that context it seems hard to understand the claim he invented the kick, but in Korea in that era he did invent it, in Brazil he didn't.

GM Ji also claims to have invented the cane, hankerchief, etc. now I have seen others use a cane but GM Ji also has a unique style that even most Hapkidoin do not do. Most use the cane as a stick or club with a hook, GM uses the crook very specifically and it is not an easy style to master.

I also do not believe the two Taoists were renownly known per se or sought out by martial artists, after all how many people are serious Taoists or want to follow Taoist traditions? GM Ji claims his first meeting with Grandma was sort of by destiny and very personal.

Thank you for this post. I was afraid that this information was never going to come out in this thread. Let me ask this question; is training on these types of kicks restricted in some way within this branch of Hapkido? Is there a reason that someone of high/very high Dan ranking would not know them or that GM Ji would not have taught them? Thank you again, your posts have provided some great information.
 

American HKD

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Thank you for this post. I was afraid that this information was never going to come out in this thread. Let me ask this question; is training on these types of kicks restricted in some way within this branch of Hapkido? Is there a reason that someone of high/very high Dan ranking would not know them or that GM Ji would not have taught them? Thank you again, your posts have provided some great information.

Not sure I understand what you are asking. All the basic Sinmoo kicks are taught by green belt, including the basic spin heel kick, variations, combos and jumping progresses up the ranks. By 2nd dan everyone knows all the kicks, the only restrictions are mastering basics before learning variations.

Master Ji's kicks are unique to his teachings and found mostly in Sinmoo. Many TKD schools adopted HKD but HKD remains secondary and studied mainly for the lock and throws. TKD and HKD use different principles in kicking and those principles must be honered or the kick is not right.

Hapkido is not TKD with joint locks.
:wink1:
 
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Thank you again Stuart. I appreciate the explanation of the kicks and where they would fall in the curriculum.
 
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