GM JI Han Jae

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by puunui
Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.

This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.

• Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
• Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?

 

[Jason Striker II]

I haven't considered any of this problem about his rapid ranking (which it was), but Bruce Lee thought sufficiently of the guy to use him for a segment of Game of Death. In other words, a very proficient practitioner!

Here's some more info on the guy: http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/history.html

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I remember watching the footage, including some 'lost' footage. If I remember correctly, he was the 'Chin Na' guy? He beat the Hapkido guy with Bruce.

 

[MAist25]

All that really matters for a rank to have worth or value in the big picture, not a personal view, is how other perceive you. If you make 8th dan in 16 years you better be able to back it up with some serious skill, GM Ji Han Jae could and did. Also, I believe that Hapkido is such a young art, with him being one of the pioneers, he made rank much faster than anybody would be able to today due to the fact that this new style had to build a foundation and establish a base of leadership, which led to what we would consider extraordinarily fast promotions.

If you look at the new style of Korean martial arts called Gongkwon Yusul that is starting to make its way out of the woodwork today, you will notice that there are already many high ranking practitioners in the art, although it is still very young. They are ranking people very quickly in order to form a base upon which to build the art. This is something I believe most, if not every style has to do in order to spread and gain popularity. Hapkido was no different.

 

[Kinghercules]

This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.

• Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
• Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?

Well when you start your own style you become the master of that style. And therefore you can award yourself whatever rank you see fit.

 

[Jason Striker II]

All that really matters for a rank to have worth or value in the big picture, not a personal view, is how other perceive you. If you make 8th dan in 16 years you better be able to back it up with some serious skill, GM Ji Han Jae could and did. Also, I believe that Hapkido is such a young art, with him being one of the pioneers, he made rank much faster than anybody would be able to today due to the fact that this new style had to build a foundation and establish a base of leadership, which led to what we would consider extraordinarily fast promotions.

If you look at the new style of Korean martial arts called Gongkwon Yusul that is starting to make its way out of the woodwork today, you will notice that there are already many high ranking practitioners in the art, although it is still very young. They are ranking people very quickly in order to form a base upon which to build the art. This is something I believe most, if not every style has to do in order to spread and gain popularity. Hapkido was no different.

IMO, these points are very important in cases like this.

 

[iron_ox]

This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.

• Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
• Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?

Isn't this similar to a thread that created considerable controversy just a while back? Yes, I would also be interested in who was issuing 8th dan in 1965. Interesting because one of the most senior people teaching at the dojang of Choi Dojunim was only 6th dan - in 1965 that is. Go figure.

 

[Jason Striker II]

This kind of controversy has a long, and somewhat sordid, history. For some of the facts check:

http://judoinfo.com/new/alphabetical-list/judo-history/375-how-the-masters-got-their-ranks

 

[miguksaram]

This came up in the TKD section, but I wanted to re-post it here where it was more forum-specific.


GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.

• Who ranked JI Han Jae to 8th Dan?
• Is 16 years of training enough to reach this level, in your opinion? Why or why not?

Why not contact him and ask him personally or go to one of his seminars to ask him? Also, why not ask the many people who learned under him around that time if his level of proficiency deemed an 8th dan?

Is 16 years enough time? I do not know. How many days a week did he practice? How many hours in each day? Did he have any background martial arts prior to training? Was he the type of person that could pick up on something very quickly and thus move faster through the ranks? What was the guep rank structure back then compared to today? Was there any rank structure? Did Choi Dojunim protest his ranking when it was given?

To many questions to answer in order to give an opinion. And let's say that he shouldn't have received it. Does that make every HKD rank under his umbrella invalid from that time on since his was not legit?

 

[puunui]

Isn't this similar to a thread that created considerable controversy just a while back? Yes, I would also be interested in who was issuing 8th dan in 1965. Interesting because one of the most senior people teaching at the dojang of Choi Dojunim was only 6th dan - in 1965 that is. Go figure.

What was your hapkido rank in 1965? Any students back then? How many had dojang of their own? Also, I made a mistake, it was 1967 for 8th Dan, not 1965.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

To many questions to answer in order to give an opinion.

Couldn't that apply to anyone you don't know personally?

And let's say that he shouldn't have received it. Does that make every HKD rank under his umbrella invalid from that time on since his was not legit?

Now that brings up a very interesting question. How do you feel about it? My initial thoughts would be that it wouldn't really matter either way. Many 'founders' didnt' have rank in the art they created, because who would rank them if they're the founder? Yet, they can and did establish a rank structure in may cases. And since 'rank' is pretty much about personal accomplishments(s), whether or not GM JI earned his rank or gave it to himself or was given it by Choi or advanced by various organizations is a moot point in the long view.

Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?

 

[Jason Striker II]

Couldn't that apply to anyone you don't know personally?



Now that brings up a very interesting question. How do you feel about it? My initial thoughts would be that it wouldn't really matter either way. Many 'founders' didnt' have rank in the art they created, because who would rank them if they're the founder? Yet, they can and did establish a rank structure in may cases. And since 'rank' is pretty much about personal accomplishments(s), whether or not GM JI earned his rank or gave it to himself or was given it by Choi or advanced by various organizations is a moot point in the long view.

Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?

All correct! The point is: There is, in fact, no OBJECTIVE standard.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

Lookng at the questions that you've asked, what amounts would you (or anyone) assign to them in order for 8th Dan within 16 years to be legitimate?

Wouldn't that depend on how a person was training and under whom? Several hours a day 5 or 6 days a week, versus 2 hours twice a week. I trained Hapkido at least 5 days a week, and mostly under my Kwan's GM.

In the Hapkido I learned, 3rd Dan would normally assist in teaching. By 4th Dan, you could have your own school under the auspices of your GM. The activities of assistant teaching and then running a school, cut down on your own study time. Drastically!

Given the right type of training, I would not consider an excess of 16 years necessary for 8th Dan. Those are in my opinion artificially imposed time frames for the most part. As long as a student can show mastery of the level to which he attains, he can be promoted. Some levels also require written papers, but I don't know at what level. When Hapkido was considering 10th Dan, I understand the GMs were told that they would have to submit papers as a test. To my knowledge, they weren't required to know any more techniques, as they should have known them all by 8th Dan.

Just my two cents. Nobody else has to agree.

 

[iron_ox]

What was your hapkido rank in 1965? Any students back then? How many had dojang of their own? Also, I made a mistake, it was 1967 for 8th Dan, not 1965.

Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it?? It has nothing to do with me, you made the statement - stop trying to divert the issue and simply answer the question. Or, if it an issue of you being told that, and not knowing the answer, then that would be the answer, that you don't know. There is no reason to try and personalize something that is based on a piece of information that you provide.

 

[iron_ox]

Lots of people went to train with a man named Dan Hydrick, he was featured on That's Incredible...his skills seems superhuman - until he was exposed as a fraud...so, going and training with someone is not always any moniker of their training, just their skill on that day. And we are talking about an abject list of rank and their issue dates, so training with someone is kind of an apples - oranges argument to me.

Did Choi Dojunim protest the rank? That's a good question, but he certainly did not issue it.

And, as for the issue of whether all the other rank that has been issued by him is legit, I think that would depend on what one gets rank in. In my opinion, in Sin Moo, the founder can issue whatever rank he wants right?

 

[puunui]

Glenn, you posted Ji got an 8th Dan in 1967 - simple question, who issued it??

The Korea Hapkido Association. The President of the KHA at the time was Mr. PARK Jong Kyu, who was head of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, which some say made him the second or third most powerful person in Korea, along with KCIA Head/Prime Minister KIM Jong Pil. Mr. PARK Jong Kyu formed the KHA, under ROK President PARK Chung Hee's authority.

It has nothing to do with me, you made the statement - stop trying to divert the issue and simply answer the question. Or, if it an issue of you being told that, and not knowing the answer, then that would be the answer, that you don't know. There is no reason to try and personalize something that is based on a piece of information that you provide.

The only person who is personalizing this is you. If you don't wish to answer the questions, for whatever reason, then don't answer them.

 

[puunui]

Lots of people went to train with a man named Dan Hydrick, he was featured on That's Incredible...his skills seems superhuman - until he was exposed as a fraud...so, going and training with someone is not always any moniker of their training, just their skill on that day. And we are talking about an abject list of rank and their issue dates, so training with someone is kind of an apples - oranges argument to me.

Are you calling GM Ji a fraud?

Did Choi Dojunim protest the rank? That's a good question, but he certainly did not issue it.

Maybe not, but what is also certain is that GM Ji has more training days with GM Choi than you do, and yet you choose to disrespect him every chance you get. That's certainly worth noting, in my opinion. Have you ever met GM Ji? How about GM Choi? I ask because you certainly speak about them like you have.

And, as for the issue of whether all the other rank that has been issued by him is legit, I think that would depend on what one gets rank in. In my opinion, in Sin Moo, the founder can issue whatever rank he wants right?

Anyone can do whatever they want, as long as they are willing to accept the consequences for their actions.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The Korea Hapkido Association. The President of the KHA at the time was Mr. PARK Jong Kyu, who was head of the ROK Presidential Protective Forces, which some say made him the second or third most powerful person in Korea, along with KCIA Head/Prime Minister KIM Jong Pil. Mr. PARK Jong Kyu formed the KHA, under ROK President PARK Chung Hee's authority.

Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training? Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?

Not speaking for Iron Ox, but in my opinion it isn't a matter for the use of the word 'fraud'. GM JI doesn't fit that descriptor. He has skill(s) which could be demonstrated. Apparently, he also was/is a very good teacher and has/does offer something that is lasting the test of time. To me, a fraud would be someone with little experience printing out a 10th Dan cert on the computer. Or charging for certificates in an organization they don't represent. Things of that nature.

I think the question was whether one could be an 8th Dan in as little as 16 (or 18) years. The answer to that obviously will change from the perspective of the person answering. To be fair, at that time it may have been considered necessary in order to establish a hierarchy within the art and/or an particular organization. Glenn could probably answer that question.

My only caveat would be that if one accepts this duration, for that rank, then they should be fair and balanced across the board when considering others time/rank.

 

[iron_ox]

Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training? Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?

Not speaking for Iron Ox, but in my opinion it isn't a matter for the use of the word 'fraud'. GM JI doesn't fit that descriptor. He has skill(s) which could be demonstrated. Apparently, he also was/is a very good teacher and has/does offer something that is lasting the test of time. To me, a fraud would be someone with little experience printing out a 10th Dan cert on the computer. Or charging for certificates in an organization they don't represent. Things of that nature.

I think the question was whether one could be an 8th Dan in as little as 16 (or 18) years. The answer to that obviously will change from the perspective of the person answering. To be fair, at that time it may have been considered necessary in order to establish a hierarchy within the art and/or an particular organization. Glenn could probably answer that question.

My only caveat would be that if one accepts this duration, for that rank, then they should be fair and balanced across the board when considering others time/rank.

Miguksaram said "go train with the man" - I raised the issue that seeing anyone person on a single day does not mean they are who or what they say they are. Read the post again.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I was only commenting on the word 'fraud' since it had been brought up and offered an opinion as to if it applied to this situation.

I'd still like to know;

Did Mr. PARK Jong Kyu have Hapkido training? Or was this an administrative posting via the government to regulate the KHA?

I think it is interesting to note that this questions hasn't been touched in several days. It is a simple question.

I think it is also interesting to note the lack of a level playing field.