Getting WT into the Cage?!?

geezer

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My FMA instructor is also a cage fighting coach/trainer. He's primarily a boxer and FMA guy, with some experience in grappling and several other arts. Above all, he's an experienced coach with a good eye. And his fighters have done respectably well on the local scene. Anyway, the other day he pulled me aside and mentioned that if WT/WC is ever going to catch the public's eye in this day and age, we need to train some fighters. He suggested that I contact some of my WT brothers and get them to work with him. He did WT for several years back in the 80's, and has enough experience to adapt what we have to the cage competition rules. But without a good coach, he said we're dogmeat. Not that WT/Wc is bad, but that the ring is different.

Well all that makes sense to me, and I've known this man long enough to know that he's sincere. He's not just about money. But I don't know squat about the whole cage thing and really have no interest in it. And he does have a point about it being one way to bring attention to WC/WT. I keep thinking of Si-Je's questions about her "hubby" trying to get into the fighting scene by himself. An experienced trainer/promotor would make a world of difference. What do you guys think. Do you know of any WC/WT schools that really train people for sport fighting? How do you feel about it?
 

bully

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I agree with MJM.

WT/WC has never been about sport fighting.

If you want to go into the cage then do MMA etc etc and train to cage fight.

I am sure it would be good for your development in the long term and maybe fill any gaps in the WT/WC system.
 

Tez3

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I can't answer this as I have no CMA knowledge but have a friend who is now a pro MMA fighter who came from CMA, if you want to ask him? He will answer any questions.
http://www.samiberik.com/
(His site is good because his brother and corner is a web designer :ultracool)
 

KamonGuy2

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My Sifu Kevin Chan trains and spars with severla cage fighters. He is a black belt in BJJ, exceptional at Muay Thai and boxing and a gifted wing chun master. Because he trains under Mauricio Gomes and Roger Gracie, he often sees and helps MMA and cage fighters

There are some elements of wing chun than can be used for the cage, but without involving other arts (ground work/clinchwork/long range striking), you will be very limited. Remember that there is a ref that will break up the fighters if certain things happen.
Cage fighting is primarily about conditioning (hitting hard and taking hard hits). Many skilled martial artists don't enter, purely for the reason that they don't wanted to be limited by rules or that they don't want to hurt a person for sport

I am entering a karate knockdown tournament next month (bare knuckle) where I intend to test some wing chun movements against some of the bigger boys (black belts). The only limitation are no direct strikes to the face, and no high head kicks, which is a bit sad. If I manage to get my student to video it I'll post it.
 

arnisador

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Personally i believe that adapting the art to sport fighting can only lead to it becoming diluted.

It would become the same as all other MMA, yes.

Wing Chun responds to different threats than a case where two people circle one another and look for an opening to grappling! Taking away its snake aspect also takes away one of its best weapons. Both WC and MMA have advantages but are optimized for a different set of assumptions.
 

qwksilver61

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Yes I do.....suspect that is..... the EBMAS system is could be one of them.I know that Sifu Emin expects more of his fighters over the gen.Wing Tzun students, so it could be that he might consider ramping up for the cage.
No doubt that what he teaches is geared for the street.....his fighters train as though they were training for the ring.I don't want to start rumors.....so we will leave this one at that. I would love to see Wing Tsun take off in the ring,one of my fantasies,and you can bet I will be there....
Good luck to your student Kamon Guy.
 

Flying Crane

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Anyway, the other day he pulled me aside and mentioned that if WT/WC is ever going to catch the public's eye in this day and age, we need to train some fighters.

it's already caught the public eye. Bruce Lee. people are aware of it.

He suggested that I contact some of my WT brothers and get them to work with him. He did WT for several years back in the 80's, and has enough experience to adapt what we have to the cage competition rules. But without a good coach, he said we're dogmeat.

hmm... ok, and ask yourself: why would a wing chun student, studying under a sifu that he respects, feel the need to suddenly switch over to this guy? Probably their sifu, who has been doing wing chun for 20 or 30 or 40 years, and has dedicated a significant portion of his life to the art, has more to offer as a teacher of that art, than a coach who spent several years (3? 4? 5? 8? How many?) back in the '80s...

But I don't know squat about the whole cage thing and really have no interest in it.

I kind of think you may have answered your own question here. If you yourself have no interest in it, why would you be interested in pushing this?

And he does have a point about it being one way to bring attention to WC/WT.

Why do you feel attention needs to be brought to it? Why in a sporting context? What's wrong with wing chun being taught and practiced the way it is? If someone wants to go into a sporting direction with wing chun for themselves, that seems fine to me as a personal decision. But why would you, or this coach for that matter, feel that wing chun as a whole needs attention, and why thru a sporting venue?

Personally, I wish this stuff was all less commercial and less well known. But that's just me.
 

Tez3

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My Sifu Kevin Chan trains and spars with severla cage fighters. He is a black belt in BJJ, exceptional at Muay Thai and boxing and a gifted wing chun master. Because he trains under Mauricio Gomes and Roger Gracie, he often sees and helps MMA and cage fighters

There are some elements of wing chun than can be used for the cage, but without involving other arts (ground work/clinchwork/long range striking), you will be very limited. Remember that there is a ref that will break up the fighters if certain things happen.
Cage fighting is primarily about conditioning (hitting hard and taking hard hits). Many skilled martial artists don't enter, purely for the reason that they don't wanted to be limited by rules or that they don't want to hurt a person for sport

I am entering a karate knockdown tournament next month (bare knuckle) where I intend to test some wing chun movements against some of the bigger boys (black belts). The only limitation are no direct strikes to the face, and no high head kicks, which is a bit sad. If I manage to get my student to video it I'll post it.

I haven't met your Sifu yet but have heard only good things about him!
 

KamonGuy2

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Yeah he is very good. But what I like about him is that he is always willing to learn and gain new experiences. Very humble and knowledgable guy.

He incorperates a lot of his experiences in other martial arts into the Kamon system. So we train traditional wing chun, but then he will also show us how the traditional stuff is adapted into realistic environments (under pressure).

I do like how he keeps it seperate and even shows how many styles use very similar techniques

There are no lies or mysticism - it is all very common sense stuff.

Sure he makes money from his schools, but his main drive is to produce good students

If you ever get a chance to train with him, you'll see what I'm talking about!!

I know that chunners get frustrated, because they switch on their TV and see UFC or Cage Rage - this huge promotion for martial arts in general, but don't see their martial art on there. Sad fact is, I don't think it ever will. I'm sure one day they will find a format for it. Wing chun is used en mass in the armed forces and was even voted as the most dangerous weapon in the world not so long ago!!

Personally, I don't mind. Cage fighting is fun to watch, but the amount of effort that goes into their training and preparation compared to an average chunner is interesting. An average chunner training once a week, will usually be able to handle himself well in a streetfight. So unless you want glory, just be happy that you are training in a great art that may not be widely publicised, but then does it matter?
 

Tez3

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Yeah he is very good. But what I like about him is that he is always willing to learn and gain new experiences. Very humble and knowledgable guy.

He incorperates a lot of his experiences in other martial arts into the Kamon system. So we train traditional wing chun, but then he will also show us how the traditional stuff is adapted into realistic environments (under pressure).

I do like how he keeps it seperate and even shows how many styles use very similar techniques

There are no lies or mysticism - it is all very common sense stuff.

Sure he makes money from his schools, but his main drive is to produce good students

If you ever get a chance to train with him, you'll see what I'm talking about!!

I know that chunners get frustrated, because they switch on their TV and see UFC or Cage Rage - this huge promotion for martial arts in general, but don't see their martial art on there. Sad fact is, I don't think it ever will. I'm sure one day they will find a format for it. Wing chun is used en mass in the armed forces and was even voted as the most dangerous weapon in the world not so long ago!!

Personally, I don't mind. Cage fighting is fun to watch, but the amount of effort that goes into their training and preparation compared to an average chunner is interesting. An average chunner training once a week, will usually be able to handle himself well in a streetfight. So unless you want glory, just be happy that you are training in a great art that may not be widely publicised, but then does it matter?


I have 'issues' about the way both UFC and Cage Rage are presented ( would make another thread lol) but many other promotions present MMA in a much more martial arts, businesslike way. Cage Gladiators from Liverpool has been on ITV4 and shows MMA in a much different light. I think more people would appreciate it presented this way and therefore would be more willing to compete on these shows.
We have a great many, the majority in fact, MMAers who can only train once or twice a week and will compete under amateur or semi pro rules. The fighters in UFC and CR tend to be people who can afford to train more, mostly Americans who've made their names, the majority of fighters in the UK haven't. I can only think of literally a couple of British fighters who can be termed professional fighters earning from MMA. Everyone else has to work, the pro fighter we have on our team does the doors in the evenings. The rest of our fighters all work, one doesn't having being made redundant from the estate agents he was working at due to the housing slump!
 
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geezer

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...Why do you feel attention needs to be brought to it? Why in a sporting context? What's wrong with wing chun being taught and practiced the way it is? If someone wants to go into a sporting direction with wing chun for themselves, that seems fine to me as a personal decision. But why would you, or this coach for that matter, feel that wing chun as a whole needs attention, and why thru a sporting venue?...

Personally, I wish this stuff was all less commercial and less well known. But that's just me.[/quote]

Yeah I hear you, Crane. One part of me is just fine studying in "garage" schools and enjoying the fact that I'm privy to things that others know little or nothing about. And, then there's the other part that would like to see WT/WC and CMAs in general really get the respect they deserve. And, also for my friends who teach to get paid what they are worth. Oh well...the world's a confusing place.
 

Flying Crane

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Yeah I hear you, Crane. One part of me is just fine studying in "garage" schools and enjoying the fact that I'm privy to things that others know little or nothing about

yups, that's my position (obviously)
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And, then there's the other part that would like to see WT/WC and CMAs in general really get the respect they deserve.

well, I'm not sure the sporting route will do that. If the touted wing chunners in the sporting events don't do well in the arena, then wing chun gets a black eye because the general viewing public assumes the sporting event is the grand yardstick against which all arts must be measured. If the chunners do well in the event, then probably they get respect, but I'm not convinced the respect goes back to the art. Not sure if the general viewing public is sophisticated enough to make that connection. They just say, "Hey, that guy was tough!" and MAYBE as an afterthought, some of them say, "by the way, what's his background?" So the respect it is going to get this way is among a very limited audience, so personally, I'm not interested one way or the other.

And it's funny that there's sort of this double-standard. When it's negative, I think people remember the style more, but when it's positive, I'm not sure they think so much about the style, and tend to think more about the person. Maybe that's because those who have been successful in the arena have a more eclectic background in MMA and stuff, so maybe they don't pay so close attention. But when some new guy comes in as "THE WING CHUNNER", then that draws attention to the art, and if the guy fails, then in the minds of the viewers, the art fails.

And it's doubtful that a pure wing chunner would be successful anyway, because the art as it stands, just isn't meant for that kind of arena. So the wing chunner will need to become an MMA guy anyway, just to be successful. Suddenly his wing chun background may fade further into the background...

And, also for my friends who teach to get paid what they are worth. Oh well...the world's a confusing place.

ah, well, nobody said life was fair...
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Tez3

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I think people should bear in mind that MMA is basically for competitions and it's completely possible that you can do your own style as well as compete in MMA. I've put a up a link to one of the UKs up and coming fighters. At first glance you'd think he looks typically MMA but he's actually a TMA blackbelt who continues to train as such, doing kata, kihons, bunkai and kumite etc as well as having a separate career in MMA.
http://www.mmauniverse.com/fighters/SS26097

There's no reason you have to give up your CMa to do MMA just run then in parallel, it's no different tbh than training karate and Judo, or Capoiera and BJJ or TKD and wrestling or any combination thereof. You don't have to dilute your main style but can do MMA as a separate sport utilising the best of your own style in it. I know a lot of MMA fighters who also fight MT. It doesn't have to be either/or.
 

brocklee

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It would become the same as all other MMA, yes.

Wing Chun responds to different threats than a case where two people circle one another and look for an opening to grappling! Taking away its snake aspect also takes away one of its best weapons. Both WC and MMA have advantages but are optimized for a different set of assumptions.

Thats right about the snake
 

KamonGuy2

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Tez3 is bang on. Many of the BJJ guys at the Gracie Barra come from a variety of different styles. Whilst they mix up the fighting in the cage, if you asked them to perform a kata or form, they would still be able to

Indeed my Sifu, Kevin Chan trains MMA and knows how to work it very well, yet he is one of the best wing chun traditionalists around

Neil Groves who is in Cage Rage is basically a karate guy who works his ground stuff as well, but he is still good at karate!!

Good martial artists can still train up for sport competition, whether it be in cage fighting, a boxing ring, a tournament or a point scoring touch contest!

But with wing chun, I think that people expect a chunner to walk into a cage and use nothing but wing chun. It is like walking into a tennis tournament without a racquet. You can move around the court, sure, but you are going to struggle big time. You need to work all areas.
 
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