Force Flow skill transmission

[JowGaWolf]

But I feel that as we get older, the above things start to become harder and harder to maintain and rely on. One of the advantages of an internal approach is that your power increases with age along with your understanding and refinement.

This is why Tai Chi is so cruel and unforgiving with it's techniques. From what I know of Internal Martial arts arts the plan and the goal is the same. I'm going to use my strength to attack my opponent at their weakest points. The weak points aren't always weak, but depending on what the attacker is doing that action has structural weak points. Internal Martial arts specializes in stuff like that. I'm not saying external arts can't do the same thing, but they don't do it to the extent that Internal martial arts do it.

And before I get bashed lol. I'm not saying internal martial arts is better, because internal techniques take a really long time in comparison to external martial arts. A person would have advanced 5 levels of WC before I could advance one level in Tai Chi.

 

[mograph]

Naah. Deleted.

 

[Tez3]

For me I don't care about good or how many fights someone has done.

You may not, but establishing credentials is always good, if someone says he has trained fighters and has, it set the parameters for their truth telling. It has nothing to do with actual fighting but establishes character

 

[JowGaWolf]

You may not, but establishing credentials is always good, if someone says he has trained fighters and has, it set the parameters for their truth telling. It has nothing to do with actual fighting but establishes character

With stuff like this, the truth will come out when the technique is demonstrated in free sparring or actual fighting provided that the person knows what to look for when analyzing the fight. The other way which is even more reliable is to experience it both from the receiving end and from the giving end.

As far as training fighters, that's only going to establish the truth of if he's a good trainer and coach.

Too many discussions on Martial Talk have been about who is telling the truth and who isn't. Very few try to actually understand what is being said. I remember my first months were spent showing videos of me doing things that people said couldn't be done. Even after I showed the videos people didn't try to understand what I was saying in the first place which wasn't about whether or not I could do what I claimed.

What would have been really nice would be if Alan were to analyze one of his free sparring or fight videos and point out when during the fight that "force flow" came into play and how it came into play. Hopefully I'll be able to get that opportunity soon. If he's lying then the lie will come out on it's own through friendly discussion, if he's not lying then that to will come out too. I don't need proof of truth when I'm seeking understanding. By me seeking to understand topics. Issues move from Truth vs False to Correct (efficient) vs Incorrect (inefficient methods).

Who he trains and how many he trains has no bearing on what what I'm trying to learn about my own style by understanding how his style works and how he's trying to apply internal martial art techniques.

 

[dudewingchun]

Alan has done a video where he breaks it down with Ale. Its just not for public.

I have learnt the basics of force flow and its helped me a lot. The only people who talk rubbish about it are people who have never met Alan. You will see and feel it when you do.

I did WC for a long time before I met Alan too.

Why people so obsessed with proving that Hendrick is wrong and this and that ? If you dont like what he does then just ignore it ? If you think your WC/VT has all it needs then why all the fuss over force flow ? You got your complete package so shouldn't you be happy with that ?

 

[Phobius]

Alan has done a video where he breaks it down with Ale. Its just not for public.

I have learnt the basics of force flow and its helped me a lot. The only people who talk rubbish about it are people who have never met Alan. You will see and feel it when you do.

I did WC for a long time before I met Alan too.

Why people so obsessed with proving that Hendrick is wrong and this and that ? If you dont like what he does then just ignore it ? If you think your WC/VT has all it needs then why all the fuss over force flow ? You got your complete package so shouldn't you be happy with that ?

You are missing the point, noone knows whether or not WC has Force Flow in their training already. You know why? Only those training Force Flow knows what it is, the rest have no clue whatsoever and never will have. And those training Force Flow are most likely not training body structure and power generation the same way. Well at least in my belief... you want to know why? The Force Flow replaces that training. If it does not, then please tell me what it is intended to do.

I have seen Force Flow used to unroot people in chi sau. Very nice to have technique, but I have seen my sifu unroot people near daily also. Nothing mystical about it as he taught us the key is simple. Master your basics, eventually you can master your opponent.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with Alan, I like the stuff he has done for WC. One day I would not mind training with him or attend his class. But question whether or not I would want to spend that time learning Force Flow? Well I am still in serious doubts.

 

[dudewingchun]

You are missing the point, noone knows whether or not WC has Force Flow in their training already. You know why? Only those training Force Flow knows what it is, the rest have no clue whatsoever and never will have. And those training Force Flow are most likely not training body structure and power generation the same way. Well at least in my belief... you want to know why? The Force Flow replaces that training. If it does not, then please tell me what it is intended to do.

I have seen Force Flow used to unroot people in chi sau. Very nice to have technique, but I have seen my sifu unroot people near daily also. Nothing mystical about it as he taught us the key is simple. Master your basics, eventually you can master your opponent.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with Alan, I like the stuff he has done for WC. One day I would not mind training with him or attend his class. But question whether or not I would want to spend that time learning Force Flow? Well I am still in serious doubts.

I guess my old school had zero force flow. From what iv seen of CST they have there own way of " force flow" where it does seem a bit more like bouncing people away and producing a ton of power ( I could be mistaken, Wing Chun Auckland could comment on that ). What iv seen of WSL they use there hip and elbow connection with a solid stance and footwork, got structure but I guess that does not count as force flow. Ip chun/Ching/ seem to have zero structure but are very focused on Yiu ma shifting to get power,but my old teacher for that style may have just not been of the best standard like he made us believe. There were bits of sink and rise in that lineage but it wasn't explained properly at all and I dont think the sifu actually had in-depth knowledge about it.

I dont know where people are getting its mystical and stuff ? Though I dont read much of Hendriks or Sergios stuff and only learn from Alan so maybe the other guys make it mystical ? Alan has never explained it to me like its some magical force that bounces people away. Iv only learned the basics. Theres sink, press, rise, spit , swallow ( not sure if thats part of force flow) and you got counter weighting, pulsing force, reaction force, linking and delinking. Using the bows or joints of the body to be able to load/take force. There is a lot too it. Its not some magical power that lets you blow people away with your chi.

It gives you better structure and power in your movements and allows you to take on stronger people. Its allowed me to be able to take the force of someones punches with my hand techniques without buckling under pressure. I do not think I would be able to spar like I do now without learning all this stuff from Alan.

If possible just meet Alan and glove up and spar with him and also chi sao. You will see what is is and if you have it.

Also im pretty sure Alan and Robert Chu knew there body structure stuff before Hendrik got involved. 6 core elements is a way to break it down into layers to understand better.

I cannot put words in Alans mouth ( with everything I say that mentions him) but Id imagine he is tired of trying to explain over and over and over to random people on the internet who are just looking for points to criticize. Why do that when he has alot of students who are willing to listen and learn and train that he can put his time and effort into making them good and answering there questions, which he does well. Hopefully I have done his system some justice with this explanation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are missing the point, noone knows whether or not WC has Force Flow in their training already. You know why? Only those training Force Flow knows what it is, the rest have no clue whatsoever and never will have. And those training Force Flow are most likely not training body structure and power generation the same way. Well at least in my belief... you want to know why? The Force Flow replaces that training. If it does not, then please tell me what it is intended to do.

I have seen Force Flow used to unroot people in chi sau. Very nice to have technique, but I have seen my sifu unroot people near daily also. Nothing mystical about it as he taught us the key is simple. Master your basics, eventually you can master your opponent.

EDIT: And this has nothing to do with Alan, I like the stuff he has done for WC. One day I would not mind training with him or attend his class. But question whether or not I would want to spend that time learning Force Flow? Well I am still in serious doubts.

To be honest I think the term Force Flow is what's mucking things up. I have never heard these concepts referred to as Force Flow until I started talking to you WC guys. lol. When I look at some traditional WC techniques being performed, I see the same concepts that are being described as "Force Flow" but it has never been referred to as Force Flow.
For example: I see many WC practitioners advance like this. My thought is that this stepping technique should be less about stepping and more about launching into the opponent over a short distance. This way you have the full weight going into a punch. The reason I say this is because my non-Wing Chun system uses a similar stance but not movement. In my system his stance would be a just a fighting stance.

Now before you close your mind watch this other video of him actually doing the movement a little faster. Don't watch his hands watch his feet and the feet of his partner. They aren't actually stepping, they are lifting their front leg and pushing off the back leg. The front leg isn't reaching out to pull forward. The front leg is lifting so that the rear leg can push force forward.

Once you are able to understand the movement then you should be able to generate force from the root without actually moving forward.

This was my original outsider's perception of what you guys understood about your system but it seems that I was totally wrong with that. I see that the concepts of generating energy and moving energy through the body to create force is something totally new.

 

[Tez3]

With stuff like this, the truth will come out when the technique is demonstrated in free sparring or actual fighting provided that the person knows what to look for when analyzing the fight. The other way which is even more reliable is to experience it both from the receiving end and from the giving end.

As far as training fighters, that's only going to establish the truth of if he's a good trainer and coach.

Too many discussions on Martial Talk have been about who is telling the truth and who isn't. Very few try to actually understand what is being said. I remember my first months were spent showing videos of me doing things that people said couldn't be done. Even after I showed the videos people didn't try to understand what I was saying in the first place which wasn't about whether or not I could do what I claimed.

What would have been really nice would be if Alan were to analyze one of his free sparring or fight videos and point out when during the fight that "force flow" came into play and how it came into play. Hopefully I'll be able to get that opportunity soon. If he's lying then the lie will come out on it's own through friendly discussion, if he's not lying then that to will come out too. I don't need proof of truth when I'm seeking understanding. By me seeking to understand topics. Issues move from Truth vs False to Correct (efficient) vs Incorrect (inefficient methods).

Who he trains and how many he trains has no bearing on what what I'm trying to learn about my own style by understanding how his style works and how he's trying to apply internal martial art techniques.

Wow, pardon me for breathing. I can see this thread joining the list of ones being locked, if you can't discuss something without attacking posters there's little point in people actually posting anything but I expect they will and it will be like a snake biting it's tail.
I'll leave you to this mess then.

 

[Phobius]

This was my original outsider's perception of what you guys understood about your system but it seems that I was totally wrong with that. I see that the concepts of generating energy and moving energy through the body to create force is something totally new.

This is basics for anyone learning WC. However since it is basics, it is not Force Flow. This is why there is a question as to what Force Flow really is.

If possible just meet Alan and glove up and spar with him and also chi sao. You will see what is is and if you have it.

I would love to and one day I might, but not all people are free to travel the world like that. There are certain stages of ones life where you have to remain where you live, I am at that point at this stage.

Also im pretty sure Alan and Robert Chu knew there body structure stuff before Hendrik got involved. 6 core elements is a way to break it down into layers to understand better.

Now THIS is the explanation I have been trying to receive for so long time. Can you believe it but you are the first person I ever hear trying to explain Force Flow without using words like "unique", "different", "new", "authentic" and so on. If Force Flow is not something new but rather a way to break it down to more understandable terms that can perhaps be taught without mastering techniques and realizing your own body with time, that would make it interesting.

Can Alan confirm or deny? I mean a simple Yes/No. No offense to dudewingchun but as he said he did not feel confident or was afraid of speaking about it incorrectly.

I cannot put words in Alans mouth ( with everything I say that mentions him) but Id imagine he is tired of trying to explain over and over and over to random people on the internet who are just looking for points to criticize. Why do that when he has alot of students who are willing to listen and learn and train that he can put his time and effort into making them good and answering there questions, which he does well. Hopefully I have done his system some justice with this explanation.

If he is tired that is sad, but I have not tired him. As such I feel myself free to ask questions. We can not judge all people by the words of a few, if we did we would go through our internet lives pissed off at everyone. Because lets face it, there are a lot of jerks on the net.

 

[SaulGoodman]

To be honest I think the term Force Flow is what's mucking things up. I have never heard these concepts referred to as Force Flow until I started talking to you WC guys. lol. When I look at some traditional WC techniques being performed, I see the same concepts that are being described as "Force Flow" but it has never been referred to as Force Flow.
For example: I see many WC practitioners advance like this. My thought is that this stepping technique should be less about stepping and more about launching into the opponent over a short distance. This way you have the full weight going into a punch. The reason I say this is because my non-Wing Chun system uses a similar stance but not movement. In my system his stance would be a just a fighting stance.

Now before you close your mind watch this other video of him actually doing the movement a little faster. Don't watch his hands watch his feet and the feet of his partner. They aren't actually stepping, they are lifting their front leg and pushing off the back leg. The front leg isn't reaching out to pull forward. The front leg is lifting so that the rear leg can push force forward.

Once you are able to understand the movement then you should be able to generate force from the root without actually moving forward.

This was my original outsider's perception of what you guys understood about your system but it seems that I was totally wrong with that. I see that the concepts of generating energy and moving energy through the body to create force is something totally new.

If "master Wong" is your main point of reference no wonder you are confused.

 

[geezer]

Jow Ga actually doesn't do so badly for somebody on the outside looking in. He's not a chunner you know. Me I can never understand squat unless I am taught it in person, ...many times over. Then sometimes words help. But not until an instructor really shows me physically as well.

So, I'll wait till Alan decides to visit the Western U.S. again (I think I read he's been out here before?). Hopefully I'll be able to attend a seminar and get some meaningful sense of what's going on. That's assuming he's willing to teach old people who just do this stuff out of love. Going on 61, I'll never be a fighter. More of a martial hobbyist with an eye on self defense, that's all.

 

[dudewingchun]

Also Alan is teaching and training morning to night everyday. I dont think he has much time for forums.

Would anyone here bother to argue and fully type out an explanation to random people on the net when you have a school to run and many students to teach who actually care and listen and you also have a ton of videos that explain the very thing you are typing to try explain? I wouldn't, I would make a comment here and there and would direct them to videos which actually show it been explained.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wow, pardon me for breathing. I can see this thread joining the list of ones being locked, if you can't discuss something without attacking posters there's little point in people actually posting anything but I expect they will and it will be like a snake biting it's tail.
I'll leave you to this mess then.

It wasn't an attack on you. don't read it that that.

 

[Tames D]

It wasn't an attack on you. don't read it that that.

She can't help it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If "master Wong" is your main point of reference no wonder you are confused.

I doesn't matter who I used because that forward step that you guys take regardless of who is showing it still has the same mechanics and still reminds me of generating force through movement of body. I used Master Wong because he also does Tai Chi so he would understand the internal martial arts. The guy in the video with low energy and Alan, to my knowledge have never stated that they trained in an internal martial arts. The guy in the video with low energy). Now we have 3 people who train WC, but only one has actual trained in an internal martial arts system, while the other 2 haven't.

In Jow Ga as well as Tai Chi learning how to do basic movements is the key foundation to learning how to apply internal techniques and methods of generating power. This is the same with many striking arts, where first you learn your root and how to move. Then you learn how to generate internal power from that root. If you don't learn how to properly use your stance or root your stance then you won't be able to generate internal power or as Alan calls Force Flow. Without a good foundation of stance and movement of stance you won't be able to allow force to flow through or past you. "Your grow a tree from the roots" A weak root system will not allow a tree to bend or with the flow of the wind.
In Tai Chi Force is not just about receiving it's also about sending. Energy in the form of motion is sent through the legs, into the arms, and out of the hand or fist. Think of a car that is moving forward and suddenly stops. Any thing that not secure will continue to go forward. Our bodies works the same way. If we start forward motion and then it suddenly stops what every is most relaxed will continue to go forward. If you arm and fist is relax then that energy flows into your arm. If you know how to control the flow of that forward motion then you can have that energy leave your fist and aid in generating a powerful hit.

If Master Wong is confused then so it this guy.

And this guy. Watch his footwork

They use the same concept that is known in internal fighting martial arts systems and in some external martial arts system. Forward motion adds to the power of the punch. I was taught to generate the energy from the root, move it forward, and have it exit my fist fist. Even if I don't step forward can still move the mass of my body forward. So when I hit someone it's not just the energy from my arm sending my fist. It is the energy from 200 pounds moving forward and exiting out of my fist.

When I see Wing Chun forms, being performed. This is what I see. If I'm wrong then I don't mind being wrong and I'll just accept that I'm wrong with my assumptions as I don't train WC. I can't argue that I'm Right or seeing something correctly when I don't practice the system. I can't only analyze the root and try to understand what is being generated, how it's generating force and how it is dealing with incoming force.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Going on 61, I'll never be a fighter. More of a martial hobbyist with an eye on self defense, that's all.

I don't know if this true or not, but I do know that in most martial arts no one wants to fight the old guy that has years of experience. Correction. No on in their right mind wants to fight the old guys with experience except for the young guys who think they know everything. lol. The fact that you even said that would make me be very careful around you. lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also Alan is teaching and training morning to night everyday. I dont think he has much time for forums.

Would anyone here bother to argue and fully type out an explanation to random people on the net when you have a school to run and many students to teach who actually care and listen and you also have a ton of videos that explain the very thing you are typing to try explain? I wouldn't, I would make a comment here and there and would direct them to videos which actually show it been explained.

I wouldn't do it if I know what I do works. In terms of internal arts, it's already difficult to explain even when you have someone physically teaching you.

 

[LFJ]

I cannot put words in Alans mouth ( with everything I say that mentions him) but Id imagine he is tired of trying to explain over and over and over to random people on the internet who are just looking for points to criticize.

Over and over and over?

He has never answered the question of where the opponents being bounced around by unbalancing "bridge" skills are in his team's many fight videos.

Instead of simply pointing to a timestamp, he uses many copouts like calling us "blind" and "fools" or just saying we can't understand it.

He has never not dodged this question.

Asking where it is in public fight videos is criticizing it? Only if it's not actually there!

 

[SaulGoodman]

What has Bruce Lee got to do with this discussion? In the "1 inch punch" clip his stance is in no way shape or form optimised to be able to utilise force flow. His hips are facing AWAY from the target and his bows look pretty locked to me, inhibiting correct force flow usage. Using forward momentum and speed to generate power is not force flow. I trained in Leung Ting system and EBMAS (both Boztepe systems) and I can assure you the mechanics are not the same as what Hendrik/Alan Orr is teaching. Using Bruce Lee as part of your argument is a bit desperate tbh.