Floating Elbow Theory

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futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

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I think the name "Floating Elbow theory" is what is throwing people off. As I watch the video you put up it is no more then the proper way to preform sticky hands with a partner. (Adhere. follow, redirect) your partner, is all done within our open hand... "blocking"... techniques.
what video are your referring to? The way I use my elbow goes against S.O.P Standard Operating Procedure Wing Chun.
 
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futsaowingchun

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Here you state it is simple.



Here you state it is not.


Are you saying the application of your floating elbow is not simple?
The Floating Elbow is not a particular technique but is used to deliver any technique.
 

Martial D

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The Floating Elbow is used just like The immovable elbow theory is used in standard Wing Chun or what is commonly called Ip Man Wing Chun. The Floating Elbow can be a substitute for the Immovable Elbow. The immovable elbow moves mostly in a linear path as opposed to The Floating Elbow which uses a circular path in any direction
So. The reason the elbow is kept in line/on center in WC is because that's where it is structurally strongest/hardest to collapse in both offense and defense. Sure, sometimes the elbow falls off line but the concept is to recover that structure when required.

To be frank ..floating elbow sounds like a funny way to say you either don't understand WC structure or you are suggesting a new type of structure to replace it...but if the latter were true you wouldn't be answering all of these direct questions with vague nothing answers.

Color me unimpressed.
 
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futsaowingchun

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So. The reason the elbow is kept in line/on center in WC is because that's where it is structurally strongest/hardest to collapse in both offense and defense. Sure, sometimes the elbow falls off line but the concept is to recover that structure when required.

To be frank ..floating elbow sounds like a funny way to say you either don't understand WC structure or you are suggesting a new type of structure to replace it...but if the latter were true you wouldn't be answering all of these direct questions with vague nothing answers.

Color me unimpressed.
Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way. The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The Floating Elbow is not a particular technique but is used to deliver any technique. ...
Do you need to use your floating elbow to deliver a straight punch (not deflect your opponent's punch and then punch back)? In other words, do you use it in a pure offense?
 
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futsaowingchun

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Do you need to use your floating elbow to deliver a straight punch (not deflect your opponent's punch and then punch back)? In other words, do you use it in a pure offense?
The elbow can move straight as well. Its not limited to any direction.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The elbow can move straight as well. Its not limited to any direction.
Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?

In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?


In the following clip, you can see his use waist rotation to push/pull his arms. You see a lot of his body movement. You don't see much of his arm movement.

PM-waist-rotation.gif
 
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Callen

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The floating Elbow, connects, absorbs,and re-directs incoming force moving it in a circular path. In Wing Chun you have the immovable Elbow which stays in a relative fixed position unlike the Floating Elbow which moves in all direction.
Connecting, absorbing and re-directing incoming force are nothing new, the Wing Chun system already develops these attributes.

In several lineages, the immovable elbow isnt a separate theory at all it is built into the development of the punch, built into fundamental system mechanics, and facilitates Lat Sau Jik Chung. Proper elbow position allows us to hit freely and drive the vertical fist at all times, it aids in recovery and reinforces body unity. If that means the elbow has to move in order to be free to hit or cover, then it moves. Remove the fist of the punch and replace it with a different hand or shape, and you have the same elbow principle for the entire system.

Ive been practicing Wing Chun for 40 plus years and traned with many teachers..
Youre trying to think outside the Fut Sao box. I truly hope that you continue to explore new ideas. Unfortunately though, it appears that you might be attempting to reinvent the wheel as the result of struggling with the limitations of your own understanding of the Wing Chun system.

The number of years any practitioner has put into Wing Chun is irrelevant if they have an incomplete understanding of the core concepts and principles. Improper training leads to improper development, no matter how much time is invested.

IMO to use the standard wing chun structure your talking about is slow and weak because is not move in a natural way.
Perhaps these questions can help to promote some much needed critical thinking in regards to how structure can be viewed:

Where does structure come from?
Can you clearly explain the mechanics of structure?
What are the trained Wing Chun attributes that develop structure?
Do you train the Luk Dim Boon Gwan? If so, what specifically does it teach us?
You have posted several videos, can you show an example of your structure in use under pressure?

The way i move my elbow is a natural way and is much stronger then keeping your elbow close to the centerline. I could clospe that very easy..Its structurally very weak.
How exactly would you go about easily collapsing someone's elbow?
 
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geezer

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Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?

In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?

I can't comment on this man's lineage, but from the perspective of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT I've been exposed to, the amount of body movement this man demonstrates seems over the top.

In my own practice I do use elastic movement of the body, hip, and stance ....but it is flexion and release in response to pressure, and the movement is very small ...scarcely visible if you aren't looking for it. It sure isn't floppy, wiggly body kung fu like the guy doing his bouncy body siu nim tau in the video.

And to be honest although it works for me, it isn't something my old sifu taught ...at least explicitly. Rather it is something subtle I've developed in my often clumsy attempts to move like he (and others I admire) did.

He taught us a lot, but not everything. And even when he was being as open as possible, there are things that went unsaid ...things that you kinda have to discover through .... experimentation and experience? And sometimes we get things wrong. I think Mr. Bouncy Body got it wrong.

As far as the "floating elbow" goes... it's an interesting idea, but it also seems a little ...too much? But I'd have to see more, or actually try it out before I could say more about it.
 

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The number of years any practitioner has put into Wing Chun is irrelevant if they have an incomplete understanding of the core concepts and principles. Improper training leads to improper development, no matter how much time is invested.
This is so true and probably the most profound statement ever made on this forum. Well said @Callen !
Length of time spent learning and training is no measure of skill.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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but from the perspective of the Yip Man WC/WT/VT I've been exposed to, the amount of body movement this man demonstrates seems over the top.
Today when I walked on the beach, I did the body rotation (floating elbow) drill over and over. The more that I did, the more it makes sense to me.

When my opponent punches toward my chest, I first rotate my body to be outside of his striking path (without moving my feet). My body rotation then pull my arm to block the punch. Since my body rotation has already dodge that punch, whether my floating elbow can block my opponent's punch or not will not be important.

If I always think about to use my arm to block my opponent's punch (freeze my body, just move my arm), I'll never be able to develop how to dodge a punch.

I have always believed to develop "body method" is very important. When your chest is facing north. If your opponent throws a south direction punch, you can rotate your chest to make it to face east (or west). This way, you just let the punch to pass next to your chest. In order to do this, your body has to rotate at least 90 degree (when you stand in square stance), or 45 degree (when your stand is side stance). It makes logical sense and also practical sense.

IMO, the "body method" is similar to footwork. Instead of moving your feet, you move your waist.

I strongly believe that during the highest level of MA training, you can only see the body movement, and you should not see much arm movement. Boxing uses body method to dodge punch all the time. For some unknown reason, CMA guys just don't use body method that much.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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In my own practice I do use elastic movement of the body, hip, and stance ....but it is flexion and release in response to pressure, and the movement is very small ...scarcely visible if you aren't looking for it. It sure isn't floppy, wiggly body kung fu like the guy doing his bouncy body siu nim tau in the video.
You have to start big and then go to small. Big is for training. We all know how to freeze our bodies and move our arm. We don't need any training for that. But to only move the body without moving the arm will take a lot of training.

In this clip, his waist rotation is very small.

PM-waist-rotation.gif


When I drill "double spears" strategy, I move my both arms in inward circles. I have tried to do in 2 different ways.

1. Only move my arms without moving my waist.
2. Move my waist first. Let my waist to push/pull my arms.

I find out that for speed, 1 is better. For power, 2 is better. So it's just a trade off between speed and power.
 
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APL76

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Today when I walked on the beach, I did the body rotation (floating elbow) drill over and over. The more that I did, the more it makes sense to me.

When my opponent punches toward my chest, I first rotate my body to be outside of his striking path (without moving my feet). My body rotation then pull my arm to block the punch. Since my body rotation has already dodge that punch, whether my floating elbow can block my opponent's punch or not will not be important.

If I always think about to use my arm to block my opponent's punch (freeze my body, just move my arm), I'll never be able to develop how to dodge a punch.

I have always believed to develop "body method" is very important. When your chest is facing north. If your opponent throws a south direction punch, you can rotate your chest to make it to face east (or west). This way, you just let the punch to pass next to your chest. In order to do this, your body has to rotate at least 90 degree (when you stand in square stance), or 45 degree (when your stand is side stance). It makes logical sense and also practical sense.

IMO, the "body method" is similar to footwork. Instead of moving your feet, you move your waist.

I strongly believe that during the highest level of MA training, you can only see the body movement, and you should not see much arm movement. Boxing uses body method to dodge punch all the time. For some unknown reason, CMA guys just don't use body method that much.
Everything you just said there, barring the floating elbow stuff, is well within the capabilities of any wing chun practitioner who has learned up to Chum Kue, assuming they know how to use it. It's all already built into the system, including this body movements stuff you keep recommending we add to wing chun.
 

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It's all already built into the system, including this body movements stuff you keep recommending we add to wing chun.

Yup. KFW likes to post this body movement stuff every once in a while to try to get his point across. IMO he simply does not understand that WC is not meant to be taken literally. It is a recipe, an alphabet, and system of processes. It is up to the practitioners to learn the ingredients of the recipe, the letters of the WC alphabet, etc and then become the cook or chef. Most do not get to that point. Hence we get videos like the ones in this thread. Sadly, the OP thinks that "SOP" wing chun (whatever that is) is lacking and that his newly created floating elbow is the solution because our WC elbow method is so weak and etc etc. He does post the occasional video that is agreeable, but in this case he seems to be making a case for a method that already exists.
If you look closely at the forms with a focus on where and how the elbows move...it's plain to see IMO.
It would be nice if the OP could show his theory in use, and by that I mean under pressure and not in a chi sau format. That may help us understand what he is trying to get across.
After seeing his chi sau vid, I don't see how he could apply that theory at combat speeds and combat unpredictability. But, I could be wrong so hopefully he will show us another video aka non-chi sau application.
 
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futsaowingchun

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Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?

In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?


In the following clip, you can see his use waist rotation to push/pull his arms. You see a lot of his body movement. You don't see much of his arm movement.

View attachment 27871
His methond is good I also use my waist to power the floating elbow.. I use this push pull as well.. He uses a lot of rising and falling in almost every move..I do this also but not to this extent,,I perfer to use a more od a circular approach,
 
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futsaowingchun

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There is no such thing.

You still haven't answered my question about the Peng bird.

Therein lies the secret of your so called "empty wing".

Happy New Year.
S.O.P is just a term I coined. which is a mind set that there is only one way to do wing chun..I.M.O there is no one way to do wing chun. Each person will do it there own way. Sorry I did not anwser your question.. I thought you where pulling my finger. Am not sure how to answer your peng bird. I know Peng in Tai Chi is an upward expansion of energy and outward. If your asking me if i do this definitely but in my own way..
 

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Do you consider to use your waist rotation to pull/push your arm instead?

In the following clip, he puts a lot of body method (waist rotation) in his training. What do you think about his approach?

I will comment on this, as I practice a system that is heavily built upon the use of body rotation as a source of technical power.

I dont see this fellow doing it. He isnt rotating so much, as he is oscillating up and down. Furthermore, his movement seems to be only vaguely connected to whatever technique he is executing in the form, and is difficult to make a realistic claim that the movement is really the engine powering the technique. Overall he seems to be oscillating rhythmically, regardless of what point he is at in the form. I dont see a connection in the movement.

I do recall seeing a video of someone doing wing Chun with what seemed like a connected body rotation. I found that intriguing because it was decidedly similar to what I do, and very different from the wing Chun that I used to do and that I seem to typically see. I thought that this was going to be that, but it is not.
 
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