Do you have a progressive mind set?

futsaowingchun

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Sifu Michael McIlwrath
Nov,4 2021

I like to share how I feel about the martial art
called Wing Chun I've practiced for 40+ years.

A lot of people may think Wing Chun is a complete martial art , and feel compelled to keep it pure by only passing it on the way they have learnt it. Basically, Sifu says do not inject your own ideas here. However, others may feel differently that Wing Chun is a great martial art but an incomplete one, So some may feel the answer is to learn other arts like Bjj, Muy Thai or MMA to fill in their holes. Well, this will certainly make you a well rounded martial artist and perhaps a better fighter, but what does it do for your mother art Wing Chun? Did you make it better, did you progress the art further?

One drawback to learning multiple styles, to complement your Wing Chun takes resources and a long investment in time which could otherwise be used to mastering your Wing Chun. So what is the alternative?

My self what I've been doing with my Wing Chun is not learning a bunch of styles to improve myself and my Wing Chun, but instead have spent over a decade transforming my Wing chun or other words progressed my Wing Chun beyond the level I've been taught. Now this does not mean I've collected a bunch of techniques from other martial systems and imported them into my Wing Chun,but Instead what I've done is progressed my Wing Chun by going beyond what Wing Chun is known for such as Centerline Theory , and the immovable elbow concept to name but a few.

My idea was to find out what is Wing Chun's strong points and it's week points then using my basic tools to use them in a different or out of the box way. The first thing I've noticed about Wing Chun is that it's overly linear, and relies almost completely on the Centerline Theory for it to function. Another words, the weak point is its over use of the Centerline and your ability to maintain Centerline dominance. When two Chunners Chi Sao or Sparr they are always fighting over Centerline which usually comes into play an over use of force and strength which often not clash with the Centerline..

My first thought was why waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline. If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it. Let him believe he has the superior position when in reality it's relative. It's the skill of the opponent not the Centerline that will determine the Victor. This idea is what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.. By doing this you can allow your opponent to take Centerline and not waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline dominance. Center point theory does not concern itself with keeping your elbow on Your Centerline and having the proper elbow distance to maintain, but instead locking onto your opponent's mass and thereby affecting their whole body not just a Limb like what happens most of the time when you're concerned about Centerline.

Center point Theory uses a floating elbow instead of the common Immovable elbow theory.The immovable elbow is used and needed for control over the Centerline, but with Center point theory the elbow simply floats like a boat on top of the water and moves to how the tides flow.

So what's the point of Center point theory? Well, it's my resolve to Centerline Theory not so much as a replacement but as the next level of Wing Chun development. You could say Wing Chun's 4th form called Center Point theory.Centerpoint is a continuation of the 3rd form. If Wing Chun's most advanced form is Bil Gee then I would say this comes next. Center point theory is designed to shut down your opponent Centerline.. If Wing Chun can only function if you have control over your Centerline then what can you do when it's taken away from you and you can take it back?

I know that the Biu Gee form deals with certain situations when your elbow is off Centerline and teaches you how to regain or cover it, but this the exception not the rule or what I call Standard operating procedure. The problem is Wing Chun can only optimally function by maintaining and controlling your centerline. Because Wing Chun's primary function was created as a Centerline fighting focused art. Surely, Wing Chuns Centerline theory and usage is an extremely valuable and important guiding concept for the Wing Chun practitioner, But as fighting arts evolve and change, so must Wing Chun. As great as the foundational principle of the Centerline theory is, it can also be a weakness if one can only use their Wing Chun within those confined conditions.

So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?
 

wckf92

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There is a lot to unpack here. I will do a more thorough reply tomorrow.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it.
I agree that if your opponent

- wants your centerline, let him have it.
- doesn't want his centerline, you take it.

Both seem contradict to each other. IMO, we need to have the ability to do both.

Also the WC sticky hand training should include how to deal with hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, back fist, ...

There are some tools that you may not use, but you can't assume that your opponent won't use it.
 
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drop bear

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Sifu Michael McIlwrath
Nov,4 2021

I like to share how I feel about the martial art
called Wing Chun I've practiced for 40+ years.

A lot of people may think Wing Chun is a complete martial art , and feel compelled to keep it pure by only passing it on the way they have learnt it. Basically, Sifu says do not inject your own ideas here. However, others may feel differently that Wing Chun is a great martial art but an incomplete one, So some may feel the answer is to learn other arts like Bjj, Muy Thai or MMA to fill in their holes. Well, this will certainly make you a well rounded martial artist and perhaps a better fighter, but what does it do for your mother art Wing Chun? Did you make it better, did you progress the art further?

One drawback to learning multiple styles, to complement your Wing Chun takes resources and a long investment in time which could otherwise be used to mastering your Wing Chun. So what is the alternative?

My self what I've been doing with my Wing Chun is not learning a bunch of styles to improve myself and my Wing Chun, but instead have spent over a decade transforming my Wing chun or other words progressed my Wing Chun beyond the level I've been taught. Now this does not mean I've collected a bunch of techniques from other martial systems and imported them into my Wing Chun,but Instead what I've done is progressed my Wing Chun by going beyond what Wing Chun is known for such as Centerline Theory , and the immovable elbow concept to name but a few.

My idea was to find out what is Wing Chun's strong points and it's week points then using my basic tools to use them in a different or out of the box way. The first thing I've noticed about Wing Chun is that it's overly linear, and relies almost completely on the Centerline Theory for it to function. Another words, the weak point is its over use of the Centerline and your ability to maintain Centerline dominance. When two Chunners Chi Sao or Sparr they are always fighting over Centerline which usually comes into play an over use of force and strength which often not clash with the Centerline..

My first thought was why waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline. If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it. Let him believe he has the superior position when in reality it's relative. It's the skill of the opponent not the Centerline that will determine the Victor. This idea is what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.. By doing this you can allow your opponent to take Centerline and not waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline dominance. Center point theory does not concern itself with keeping your elbow on Your Centerline and having the proper elbow distance to maintain, but instead locking onto your opponent's mass and thereby affecting their whole body not just a Limb like what happens most of the time when you're concerned about Centerline.

Center point Theory uses a floating elbow instead of the common Immovable elbow theory.The immovable elbow is used and needed for control over the Centerline, but with Center point theory the elbow simply floats like a boat on top of the water and moves to how the tides flow.

So what's the point of Center point theory? Well, it's my resolve to Centerline Theory not so much as a replacement but as the next level of Wing Chun development. You could say Wing Chun's 4th form called Center Point theory.Centerpoint is a continuation of the 3rd form. If Wing Chun's most advanced form is Bil Gee then I would say this comes next. Center point theory is designed to shut down your opponent Centerline.. If Wing Chun can only function if you have control over your Centerline then what can you do when it's taken away from you and you can take it back?

I know that the Biu Gee form deals with certain situations when your elbow is off Centerline and teaches you how to regain or cover it, but this the exception not the rule or what I call Standard operating procedure. The problem is Wing Chun can only optimally function by maintaining and controlling your centerline. Because Wing Chun's primary function was created as a Centerline fighting focused art. Surely, Wing Chuns Centerline theory and usage is an extremely valuable and important guiding concept for the Wing Chun practitioner, But as fighting arts evolve and change, so must Wing Chun. As great as the foundational principle of the Centerline theory is, it can also be a weakness if one can only use their Wing Chun within those confined conditions.

So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?

How exactly did you go about developing this new outlook?
 
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futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

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I agree that if your opponent

- wants your centerline, let him have it.
- doesn't want his centerline, you take it.

Both seem contradict to each other. IMO, we need to have the ability to do both.

Also the WC sticky hand training should include how to deal with hook, uppercut, overhand, hammer fist, back fist, ...

There are some tools that you may not use, but you can't assume that your opponent won't use it.
yes and a whole lot more..how about throws, sprawls , weapons etc.
 
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futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

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How exactly did you go about developing this new outlook?
I would say my last teacher had a lot to do with it, but as he went his way I went mine..These ideas just pop into my mind then I try it it to see if it works or not..My Wing Chun is changing very quickly almost on a daily ..The main thin is its important to me to progess myself and my wing chun as opposed to importing other arts into it. These to things are very different.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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yes and a whole lot more..how about throws, sprawls , weapons etc.
If one wants to have a complete cold weapon training, he will need to train:

- dagger.
- single edge knife.
- double edges sword.
- staff.
- spear.
- Guan Dao.
- ...

If one wants to train the throwing art, he will need to learn 230 different throws.

The day that I started to train the throwing art, the day that I had to give up all my cold weapon training.

I like your approach. I have always believed if I can't add new information into MA, it can be a big waste for me to come to this world.
 
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Oily Dragon

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Sifu Michael McIlwrath
Nov,4 2021

I like to share how I feel about the martial art
called Wing Chun I've practiced for 40+ years.

A lot of people may think Wing Chun is a complete martial art , and feel compelled to keep it pure by only passing it on the way they have learnt it. Basically, Sifu says do not inject your own ideas here. However, others may feel differently that Wing Chun is a great martial art but an incomplete one, So some may feel the answer is to learn other arts like Bjj, Muy Thai or MMA to fill in their holes. Well, this will certainly make you a well rounded martial artist and perhaps a better fighter, but what does it do for your mother art Wing Chun? Did you make it better, did you progress the art further?

One drawback to learning multiple styles, to complement your Wing Chun takes resources and a long investment in time which could otherwise be used to mastering your Wing Chun. So what is the alternative?

My self what I've been doing with my Wing Chun is not learning a bunch of styles to improve myself and my Wing Chun, but instead have spent over a decade transforming my Wing chun or other words progressed my Wing Chun beyond the level I've been taught. Now this does not mean I've collected a bunch of techniques from other martial systems and imported them into my Wing Chun,but Instead what I've done is progressed my Wing Chun by going beyond what Wing Chun is known for such as Centerline Theory , and the immovable elbow concept to name but a few.

My idea was to find out what is Wing Chun's strong points and it's week points then using my basic tools to use them in a different or out of the box way. The first thing I've noticed about Wing Chun is that it's overly linear, and relies almost completely on the Centerline Theory for it to function. Another words, the weak point is its over use of the Centerline and your ability to maintain Centerline dominance. When two Chunners Chi Sao or Sparr they are always fighting over Centerline which usually comes into play an over use of force and strength which often not clash with the Centerline..

My first thought was why waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline. If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it. Let him believe he has the superior position when in reality it's relative. It's the skill of the opponent not the Centerline that will determine the Victor. This idea is what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.. By doing this you can allow your opponent to take Centerline and not waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline dominance. Center point theory does not concern itself with keeping your elbow on Your Centerline and having the proper elbow distance to maintain, but instead locking onto your opponent's mass and thereby affecting their whole body not just a Limb like what happens most of the time when you're concerned about Centerline.

Center point Theory uses a floating elbow instead of the common Immovable elbow theory.The immovable elbow is used and needed for control over the Centerline, but with Center point theory the elbow simply floats like a boat on top of the water and moves to how the tides flow.

So what's the point of Center point theory? Well, it's my resolve to Centerline Theory not so much as a replacement but as the next level of Wing Chun development. You could say Wing Chun's 4th form called Center Point theory.Centerpoint is a continuation of the 3rd form. If Wing Chun's most advanced form is Bil Gee then I would say this comes next. Center point theory is designed to shut down your opponent Centerline.. If Wing Chun can only function if you have control over your Centerline then what can you do when it's taken away from you and you can take it back?

I know that the Biu Gee form deals with certain situations when your elbow is off Centerline and teaches you how to regain or cover it, but this the exception not the rule or what I call Standard operating procedure. The problem is Wing Chun can only optimally function by maintaining and controlling your centerline. Because Wing Chun's primary function was created as a Centerline fighting focused art. Surely, Wing Chuns Centerline theory and usage is an extremely valuable and important guiding concept for the Wing Chun practitioner, But as fighting arts evolve and change, so must Wing Chun. As great as the foundational principle of the Centerline theory is, it can also be a weakness if one can only use their Wing Chun within those confined conditions.

So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?
What do you know about the southern Snake, Crane, and Dragon styles? Not in years, details please, so I can help fill in the gaps for you.
 
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wckf92

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Sifu Michael McIlwrath
Nov,4 2021

I like to share how I feel about the martial art
called Wing Chun I've practiced for 40+ years.

A lot of people may think Wing Chun is a complete martial art , and feel compelled to keep it pure by only passing it on the way they have learnt it. Basically, Sifu says do not inject your own ideas here. However, others may feel differently that Wing Chun is a great martial art but an incomplete one, So some may feel the answer is to learn other arts like Bjj, Muy Thai or MMA to fill in their holes. Well, this will certainly make you a well rounded martial artist and perhaps a better fighter, but what does it do for your mother art Wing Chun? Did you make it better, did you progress the art further?

One drawback to learning multiple styles, to complement your Wing Chun takes resources and a long investment in time which could otherwise be used to mastering your Wing Chun. So what is the alternative?

My self what I've been doing with my Wing Chun is not learning a bunch of styles to improve myself and my Wing Chun, but instead have spent over a decade transforming my Wing chun or other words progressed my Wing Chun beyond the level I've been taught. Now this does not mean I've collected a bunch of techniques from other martial systems and imported them into my Wing Chun,but Instead what I've done is progressed my Wing Chun by going beyond what Wing Chun is known for such as Centerline Theory , and the immovable elbow concept to name but a few.

My idea was to find out what is Wing Chun's strong points and it's week points then using my basic tools to use them in a different or out of the box way. The first thing I've noticed about Wing Chun is that it's overly linear, and relies almost completely on the Centerline Theory for it to function. Another words, the weak point is its over use of the Centerline and your ability to maintain Centerline dominance. When two Chunners Chi Sao or Sparr they are always fighting over Centerline which usually comes into play an over use of force and strength which often not clash with the Centerline..

My first thought was why waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline. If your opponent wants Centerline, let him have it. Let him believe he has the superior position when in reality it's relative. It's the skill of the opponent not the Centerline that will determine the Victor. This idea is what I call Center point theory which is not using your Centerline, but locking onto the center point or mass of the opponent.. By doing this you can allow your opponent to take Centerline and not waste your time and energy fighting for Centerline dominance. Center point theory does not concern itself with keeping your elbow on Your Centerline and having the proper elbow distance to maintain, but instead locking onto your opponent's mass and thereby affecting their whole body not just a Limb like what happens most of the time when you're concerned about Centerline.

Center point Theory uses a floating elbow instead of the common Immovable elbow theory.The immovable elbow is used and needed for control over the Centerline, but with Center point theory the elbow simply floats like a boat on top of the water and moves to how the tides flow.

So what's the point of Center point theory? Well, it's my resolve to Centerline Theory not so much as a replacement but as the next level of Wing Chun development. You could say Wing Chun's 4th form called Center Point theory.Centerpoint is a continuation of the 3rd form. If Wing Chun's most advanced form is Bil Gee then I would say this comes next. Center point theory is designed to shut down your opponent Centerline.. If Wing Chun can only function if you have control over your Centerline then what can you do when it's taken away from you and you can take it back?

I know that the Biu Gee form deals with certain situations when your elbow is off Centerline and teaches you how to regain or cover it, but this the exception not the rule or what I call Standard operating procedure. The problem is Wing Chun can only optimally function by maintaining and controlling your centerline. Because Wing Chun's primary function was created as a Centerline fighting focused art. Surely, Wing Chuns Centerline theory and usage is an extremely valuable and important guiding concept for the Wing Chun practitioner, But as fighting arts evolve and change, so must Wing Chun. As great as the foundational principle of the Centerline theory is, it can also be a weakness if one can only use their Wing Chun within those confined conditions.

So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?

So are you saying you intend to create a 4th form and add it to your curriculum? Will this creation be a new Fut Sao Wing Chun family?

On another note: not sure what you mean by the elbow being constrained to your centerline. Wing Chun contains inside-to-outside and outside-to-inside theories for controlling the centerline.
 
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futsaowingchun

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So are you saying you intend to create a 4th form and add it to your curriculum? Will this creation be a new Fut Sao Wing Chun family?

On another note: not sure what you mean by the elbow being constrained to your centerline. Wing Chun contains inside-to-outside and outside-to-inside theories for controlling the centerline.
For myself I don't need to create a 4th form but to tech I will have to..I've simply have already integrated and internalized it into everything I do so a form is only a formality or for teaching purposes. The elbow line moves in a linear fashion but my floating elbow moves in all 6 directions, up, down ,left, right ,forward and backwards the elbow does not always stay close to the Centerline but I use it o.ly as a reference point not as something I have to follow..
 
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futsaowingchun

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What do you know about the southern Snake, Crane, and Dragon styles? Not in years, details please, so I can help fill in the gaps for you.
I many martial art friends that know many different style am always training with then and sharing information as I feel this is part of your martial art education..
 

Oily Dragon

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I many martial art friends that know many different style am always training with then and sharing information as I feel this is part of your martial art education..
The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks. Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material. I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.

Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit. Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style. Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?
 
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futsaowingchun

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The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks. Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material. I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.

Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit. Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style. Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?
I have crossed trained for many years in NYC Chinatown with many high level masters. like tai chi, mantis, dragon, Northern Shaolin, Wing Chun,Choy Le Fut, HUng Gar, and people who make up their own stuff, ,,Because experience is the best teacher..perhaps its all been done before but its up to you to experience first hand.
 
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futsaowingchun

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The reason I ask is that Wing Chun students who have never been exposed to the southern Chinese frameworks that constitute it, often begin to discuss and craft their own new theories to fill in the blanks. Next thing you know, they're writing all sorts of exploratory essays that tend to stray from the source material. I question the need for further theorizing about something that's been theorized to death, rather than taking it to Chinatown and actually sparring like normal kung fu people, something Wing Chun students tend to shy away from, again wrapping themselves up in theory.

Consider for a moment that thousands of people over hundreds of years have already done the work for you, and it's all written down somewhere in a notebook, probably as unnoticeable as a footnote about Snake hands and Dragon's wings, and their relationship to Qi and Shen, lifeforce and spirit. Those are two qualities I look to for legitimate Wing Chun, as well as any other style. Those, and weapon skill. Have you learned any of the traditional Yongchaun weapons?
yes, ive learnt the pole and the knife.
 

Oily Dragon

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yes, ive learnt the pole and the knife.
Sweet. The 璉 is a great area to examine Wing Chun principles, especially biu ji.

There is a great pole drill in the southern family styles that incorporates both bridging and forearm conditioning. I doubt I can find a video of it, but basically it combines snake and dragon mechanics into an agility and conditioning exercise for two people. You can also do the drill by yourself if you're creative enough. I'll look for it.

If you know what I'm talking about, it combines siu num tao, biu ji, and chum kiu into one really beautiful 2-person drill. With a weapon.
 
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Do you see any similarity between WC, white crane, and southern praying mantis?
yes, they have similar hand techniques and structures but they have their own differences as well.. they all have a centerline concept with short infighting, so does 7 star mantis as well. which is a northern style
 
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