Fixing Wikipedia - question #1

[TrueJim]

When I look at the taekwondo pages on Wikipedia, I see a number of errors that to me seem like easy fixes. I was thinking at taking a crack at fixing them, but I wanted to run these thoughts by some other martial artists first. I've checked the Talk pages on these wiki articles, but none of the recent online chatter is from martial artists.

Let's start at the top: the opening paragraphs of the main article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

• In paragraph 4, ITF taekwondo is referred to as Sport Taekwondo. Would you guys consider ITF to be Sport Taekwondo? I wouldn't have thought so.
• In paragraph 3, it says Traditional Taekwondo patterns are named after Korean historical figures. I think they mean ITF patterns are named after Korean historical figures. Agree?
• Then down below, in the section called Organizations. It seems to me some clarity could be added there. I'd be inclined to rewrite that more like a list: 3 ITFs, a GTF, a WTF, an ATA, Jhoon Rhee, and then more niche organizations. Any thoughts on how to clean that section up?

There are lots of other cleanups that can be done, but those are probably less controversial. Before I perform any controversial cleanups, I wanted to run those questions by some martial artists.

 

[ETinCYQX]

When I look at the taekwondo pages on Wikipedia, I see a number of errors that to me seem like easy fixes. I was thinking at taking a crack at fixing them, but I wanted to run these thoughts by some other martial artists first. I've checked the Talk pages on these wiki articles, but none of the recent online chatter is from martial artists.

Let's start at the top: the opening paragraphs of the main article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

• In paragraph 4, ITF taekwondo is referred to as Sport Taekwondo. Would you guys consider ITF to be Sport Taekwondo? I wouldn't have thought so.
• In paragraph 3, it says Traditional Taekwondo patterns are named after Korean historical figures. I think they mean ITF patterns are named after Korean historical figures. Agree?
• Then down below, in the section called Organizations. It seems to me some clarity could be added there. I'd be inclined to rewrite that more like a list: 3 ITFs, a GTF, a WTF, an ATA, Jhoon Rhee, and then more niche organizations. Any thoughts on how to clean that section up?

There are lots of other cleanups that can be done, but those are probably less controversial. Before I perform any controversial cleanups, I wanted to run those questions by some martial artists.

Sport Taekwondo typically refers to competitions governed by the WTF, but there are also competitions in ITF style Taekwondo. Olympic Taekwondo is governed by the WTF and is fought using WTF rules but the way I understand it, it is not limited to KKW style Taekwondo practitioners. I think someone outlined the way for an ITF or ATA practitioner to make an Olympic team here some years back.

WTF is a sport governing body just like FIFA, they are not a style of Taekwondo like ITF. Kukkiwon is the style. Lots of KKW practitioners have a focus on WTF style competition, including myself, but lots don't.

The term Traditional Taekwondo is kind of ambiguous. ITF and KKW Taekwondo are not significantly different in age, and neither is very old, so which one is "traditional" is a question of semantics. I did not know that ITF patterns were named after Korean historical figures, but I do know that Kukkiwon patterns are not. I remember reading about the names of Kukkiwon patterns, but I can't remember specifics at this point.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Sport Taekwondo typically refers to competitions governed by the WTF, but there are also competitions in ITF style Taekwondo.

Sport Taekwondo refers to any competition or competition-oriented training, regardless of the org behind it.

Olympic Taekwondo is governed by the WTF and is fought using WTF rules but the way I understand it, it is not limited to KKW style Taekwondo practitioners. I think someone outlined the way for an ITF or ATA practitioner to make an Olympic team here some years back.

Olympic TKD is limited to KKW practitioners. There is an agreement signed very recently between the WTF and the North Korean splinter of the ITF to allow cross-competition, but that's a very small change. Basically, you must have KKW Dan rank to compete in Olympic TKD. If you're with another org, you can get assimiltation rank, which basically amounts to the KKW being willing to issue KKW rank without training in the KKW curriculum.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

The Kukkiwon is the South Korean organization whose function is to certify and issue their own taekwondo black belts for those who complete the KKW course of study and are recommended for promotion by their KKW registered instructors. Of course, not all taekwondo practitioners have a KKW registered black belt dan rank. There are also the International TKD Federation, American TKD Assn. etc., etc. TKD practitioners who train outside the KKW's curriculum.

Sport taekwondo, especially Olympic taekwondo, is associated with the governing body the World Taekwondo Federation. However, other taekwondo bodies, including the ITF and ATA also have competitions. But because the WTF and KKW are so involved with the Olympics, they're best known for sport TKD.

 

[TrueJim]

Sport Taekwondo refers to any competition or competition-oriented training, regardless of the org behind it.

Now that you mention it, maybe that's a much more useful way to approach a Wikipedia fix. Wikipedia starts off by saying there are two types of taekwondo, Traditional and Sport. My question was essentially, where would you place ITF within those two categories. If I understand you correctly, you're saying, the question itself is the wrong question. You're saying, Wikipedia is wrong in the first place to divide taekwondo into Traditional and Sport, since any form of taekwondo that has competitions is by-definition Sport Taekwondo. So for example, even Tang Soo Do / Mu Duk Kwan Taekwondo could be Sport Taekwondo, since they do have competitions.

So using that philosophy, the correct fix for Wikipedia is to just not start off by dividing taekwondo into Sport vs. Traditional in the first place. Now that you mention it, that's not a bad idea. My thinking was biased by what the previous Wikipedia author wrote, I should have been thinking with a clean slate. Thanks!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Now that you mention it, maybe that's a much more useful way to approach a Wikipedia fix. Wikipedia starts off by saying there are two types of taekwondo, Traditional and Sport. My question was essentially, where would you place ITF within those two categories. If I understand you correctly, you're saying, the question itself is the wrong question. You're saying, Wikipedia is wrong in the first place to divide taekwondo into Traditional and Sport, since any form of taekwondo that has competitions is by-definition Sport Taekwondo. So for example, even Tang Soo Do / Mu Duk Kwan Taekwondo could be Sport Taekwondo, since they do have competitions.

So using that philosophy, the correct fix for Wikipedia is to just not start off by dividing taekwondo into Sport vs. Traditional in the first place. Now that you mention it, that's not a bad idea. My thinking was biased by what the previous Wikipedia author wrote, I should have been thinking with a clean slate. Thanks!

Sport Taekwondo is that subset of the Art of Taekwondo that is used in competition.
I think that's the simplest way to look at it.

 

[TrueJim]

Sport taekwondo, especially Olympic taekwondo, is associated with the governing body the World Taekwondo Federation. However, other taekwondo bodies, including the ITF and ATA also have competitions. But because the WTF and KKW are so involved with the Olympics, they're best known for sport TKD.

Yah, I suspect that whoever first wrote that Wikipedia article was thinking along those same lines. When I hear most people say Sport Taekwondo I tend to think of Kukkiwon style, but maybe the Wikipedia article should be fixed in such a way that it breaks that distinction rather than reinforcing it. Thanks!