Fixing the training model

[Martial D]

What on earth does that mean? Use English man.



And what are you on about? 24 years? Early UFC, which is what we were discussing, was primarily to publicise BJJ in the USA who didn't give a damn, still doesn't, about Asia. Rorion Grace was one of the organisers of UFC1.

That's kind of funny considering all the local slang you use that looks like gibberish to those of us on this side of the pond.

Can you understand "easily beating" then?

 

[Steve]

Well the whole point of the UFC was publicise BJJ and make it marketable so it did it's job.

That is true but doesn't mean fights were rigged.

 

[pdg]

Interesting that you view me simply telling you to pick up grappling experience if you're serious about entering MMA as some sort of attack on your style.

The difference between you and I is that I have an instructor grade in a striking art, which just happens to be the parent art of the style you currently take. Last I checked, you don't have an instructor grade in any grappling art, and it would appear that you have zero experience in any dedicated grappling art. So unless you're like me, you probably should take a step back and actually listen to what I'm trying to tell you.

I know where your deluded concepts come from, because I used to have similar delusions. I, like you believed that I could simply move around a grappler and do a few choice shots and knock the grappler out. I, like you, used to believe that I could kick someone in a particular spot at any given time and knock them out. I, like you used to believe that hitting pads really hard was just like hitting a moving target made of flesh and bone really hard. I, like you used to believe that Kata was more than what it actually was. Fortunately, it only took going a few rounds with an amateur boxer, and a few Judo classes to realize that I had been fed a spoonful of crap, and that I had to pretty much start from square one. I thought over time this mass delusion among Karate and TKD practicioners would dissipate as reality set in, but I guess I was expecting too much.

You're (probably facetiously) talking about actually fighting in a MMA bout without any grappling experience. I wish you the best of luck, because if you enter that octagon without any grappling experience, you have a good chance of ending up on your back with fists hitting you in the face.

You actually help with something here - you say you hold an instructor grade in a striking art.

Holding a grade (any grade) doesn't mean you're any good.

An instructor grade doesn't mean you understand application - it doesn't even mean you know how to instruct.

Your later point illustrates this, where an amateur boxer and a few judo classes "woke you up".

You ignorance and lack of understanding of your striking art has no bearing on me to be honest.

If you can't see beyond a block being a block and a strike being a strike then that's on you and your mental capacity.


Thing is, if I was to do anything like this I almost guarantee you'll jump up and down in excitement telling the world how I lied because I wasn't using my striking art - because I "grappled"...

 

[Tez3]

That's kind of funny considering all the local slang you use that looks like gibberish to those of us on this side of the pond.

Can you understand "easily beating" then?

'Local slang' oh you mean the Queen's English. I'm sorry, I didn't realise you don't understand it.

That is true but doesn't mean fights were rigged.

However many people involved at the time said they were, and it would be naïve to think that some weren't worked fights.
There's also more than one way to ensure the outcome of a fight.
9 Ways Fights are "Fixed" in Professional MMA

 

[Tez3]

And my point was that if it wasn't legit, it wouldn't have maintained its position as a MMA mainstay.

It's a business, a multinational one now, it doesn't have to be 'legit' it just has to make money.

 

[pdg]

It's a business, a multinational one now, it doesn't have to be 'legit' it just has to make money.

I think there's a little more to it than that.

From what I gather, a few (very?) exceptional early pioneers used their grappling to defeat 'strikers' who were possibly not expecting that sort of confrontation.

People saw it work like that, and assumed (rightly or wrongly) that it's superior. So, it naturally led to many following that path. Quite a few of the ones who didn't switch still tried to out grapple the grapplers though.

The same thing happens with boxers - which led to that saying "don't try to outbox a boxer".

But what happens? There are many "boxing Vs something" videos that show what happens. Someone from a different art goes against a boxer and tries to do boxing. And gets beaten.

A karateka goes against a judoka and tries to judo - and gets beaten.

A striker goes into an MMA ring with the psychological programming in place that they need to grapple a lot (helped by the fact that the whole thing is set up to favour grappling from the start) and is defeated by a grappler.

What has been denied in the past (and even referred to as marketing hype) is that if you put a grappler under a striking ruleset, they'll either lose or be disqualified.

According to Hanzou previously, me saying that "if I go into a boxing match and sweep his legs and kick for his head it would lead to me being disqualified" is me falling for hype purely designed to stop my art looking bad...

 

[Hanzou]

Thing is, if I was to do anything like this I almost guarantee you'll jump up and down in excitement telling the world how I lied because I wasn't using my striking art - because I "grappled"...

Actually that will never happen, because if you're dumb enough to enter a MMA fight with no grappling experience, there's only one way that fight is going to go.

 

[Hanzou]

It's a business, a multinational one now, it doesn't have to be 'legit' it just has to make money.

A guy using Aikido. Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Jow Ga would make tons of money in the MMA circuit. The reason you see no one using any of that is because it won't win any fights.

 

[Hanzou]

A striker goes into an MMA ring with the psychological programming in place that they need to grapple a lot (helped by the fact that the whole thing is set up to favour grappling from the start) and is defeated by a grappler.

Please explain how MMA is set up to favor grappling over striking.

 

[pdg]

Oh, this as well.

I have an instructor grade in a striking art, which just happens to be the parent art of the style you currently take.

So, that would be TSD would it?

If so:

I, like you used to believe that Kata was more than what it actually was.

Once again shows how shallow your understanding is.

It doesn't have kata, because kata is a Japanese word.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, this as well.



So, that would be TSD would it?

If so:



Once again shows how shallow your understanding is.

It doesn't have kata, because kata is a Japanese word.

No, Shotokan, which is the parent art of both TSD and TKD.

 

[pdg]

No, Shotokan, which is the parent art of both TSD and TKD.

Well, depending on who you believe that's either a minimum of two generations separate or entirely unrelated.

Still doesn't mean you were any good at it, nor that you understood it.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, depending on who you believe that's either a minimum of two generations separate or entirely unrelated.

Still doesn't mean you were any good at it, nor that you understood it.

Unfortunately Korean sources are rather unreliable when it comes to anything related to the Japanese occupation of the peninsula. Martial Art history is especially bad, filled with all sorts and myths and legends.

However if you look at the kata and the techniques, the three arts are extremely similar.

 

[pdg]

Unfortunately Korean sources are rather unreliable when it comes to anything related to the Japanese occupation of the peninsula. Martial Art history is especially bad, filled with all sorts and myths and legends.

However if you look at the kata and the techniques, the three arts are extremely similar.

That's something I can fully agree with you on.



Edit: except for using the word kata, I don't do kata, I do tul

 

[Hanzou]

That's something I can fully agree with you on.

Edit: except for using the word kata, I don't do kata, I do tul

Whatever.

Tell me how MMA favors grappling over striking.

 

[Tez3]

A guy using Aikido. Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Jow Ga would make tons of money in the MMA circuit. The reason you see no one using any of that is because it won't win any fights.

You are so fixated on BJJ you don't seem to understand ( or if you do you ignore it) that MMA is what it says on the tin, mixed martial arts, you won't see any one style these days in a fight but an amalgam of as many techniques from as many styles as work for a particular fighter. I have seen, because I actually judge fights, many different moves from CMA, Aikido, karate etc etc all in the same fight. The reason many people don't see this flow of techniques into each other is because a. they refuse to see it and b they are ignorant of other styles so don't know the style the technique comes from and of course there is c. where the same technique with minor tweaking is seen in many styles.

Once again shows how shallow your understanding is.

His understanding is all of months if not weeks old, he told us a while back he'd only studied karate for a short time, certainly not long enough to gain even an adequate working knowledge of kata and the practical application of it.

From what I gather, a few (very?) exceptional early pioneers used their grappling to defeat 'strikers' who were possibly not expecting that sort of confrontation.

The history of the UFC is that of the Gracies setting it up to market BJJ ( not saying that is a bad thing btw)
Rorion Gracie and the day he created the UFC

 

[pdg]

Whatever.

And that's the sort of attitude I was referring to.

Instead of actually intelligently looking at an art and seeing how you can really use, just say "whatever" and do something else.

Tell me how MMA favors grappling over striking.

From the ruleset.

Many strikes are illegal moves - especially strikes to areas that are legitimate grappling submission points.

I can't strike the throat, but I can squeeze it. I can't strike the back of the head, or the spine, but I can squeeze it. Etc.

 

[Hanzou]

You are so fixated on BJJ you don't seem to understand ( or if you do you ignore it) that MMA is what it says on the tin, mixed martial arts, you won't see any one style these days in a fight but an amalgam of as many techniques from as many styles as work for a particular fighter. I have seen, because I actually judge fights, many different moves from CMA, Aikido, karate etc etc all in the same fight. The reason many people don't see this flow of techniques into each other is because a. they refuse to see it and b they are ignorant of other styles so don't know the style the technique comes from and of course there is c. where the same technique with minor tweaking is seen in many styles.

You got any video showing this? I can almost guarantee that you're talking about some Chuck Liddell situation where he supposedly studied Kung Fu at some point, yet fights just like your standard MMA fighter who never took Kung Fu in their life.

I want to see someone in MMA doing stuff like this:

His understanding is all of months if not weeks old, he told us a while back he'd only studied karate for a short time, certainly not long enough to gain even an adequate working knowledge of kata and the practical application of it.

Er what? I studied shotokan karate for 8 years, obtaining a 2nd degree black belt (nidan)

 

[Hanzou]

And that's the sort of attitude I was referring to.

Instead of actually intelligently looking at an art and seeing how you can really use, just say "whatever" and do something else.

I was saying whatever because I don't care what you call your Korean Karate forms.

From the ruleset.

Many strikes are illegal moves - especially strikes to areas that are legitimate grappling submission points.

I can't strike the throat, but I can squeeze it. I can't strike the back of the head, or the spine, but I can squeeze it. Etc.

You do know that there are MMA competitions where all of that is legal and the results end up exactly the same right?

 

[pdg]

The history of the UFC is that of the Gracies setting it up to market BJJ ( not saying that is a bad thing btw)

No, it's certainly not a bad thing at all.