Fitting FMA into MMA

[Tez3]

Sadly if you do MMA it's something you get alot. "Oh MMA is no good for a real fight", or "you wouldn't get me down if it wasn't for the rules" etc etc, it gets tiresome tbh.
I think there must be very few styles that won't fit into MMA, possibly there's none at all as every martial art has something that can be used even weapons, although they aren't used the timing and speed of your moves must be of some use surely!
If you are fighting in an MMA competition you will be able to work your gameplan according to who you are fighting, this will give you the cahnce to brush up any extra skills you think you may need according to what their strengths and weaknesses are. In the meantime work on everything lol!

 

[Nolerama]

This is kind of what I wanted to avoid.

I'd like to know where and how my FMA training fits into MMA, not how it would compare in an all-out fight. MMA is as level a playing field as we can get for people of different MA backgrounds to test their skills. It almost goes without saying that no matter what a person's base art may be, they still need exposure to striking, grappling, and athletic conditioning if they actually want to survive an MMA match. My original question was in trying to figure out how to fit what I've learned into the MMA game. So far, I've found the angling and footwork, entries and reversals to carry over well. However, that's no excuse for me to not brush-up/improve/learn the skills needed in the game.

As for the rules, if I wanted to throw them out the window, I may as well bring a stick or a blade into the ring... lol. Seriously, for whatever limitations those rules bring to whatever arts, I think they're there for the benefit of keeping the athletes safe. We've seen what happens to boxers when they're pushed to the limit and the ref lets it go.

I think your pain tolerance/exposure is pretty high when you bring FMA into a MMA setting. Getting hit by a stick in FMA really puts striking/getting hit into perspective. Personally, I think it gives you a leg up in how you defend yourself.

A lot of the destructions I've seen in FMA drills translate very well into MMA. Instead of a knife thrust into someone's midsection, it's a nice shot into the kidney or liver. Clinch in the FMAs seems more fluid that the sparse Greco I've trained in MMA so I take the FMA route and look for openings, advantages from that.

However, I highly suggest that some of those FMA -> MMA drills be drilled light, tight, and above all else: alive. You'll start seeing the functionality of your FMA game and take that into the ring with you.

In all, I think it's a mindset. FMA, like a lot of other combat TMAs places the practitioner in an elevated state of aggressiveness. It's not a fear state, but an awareness that says "Hey, I'm in peril, so I'm going to do something about it." Lots of MMA fanboys never get that. They hang in the gym for a few sessions, realize that getting hit in the face (even lightly) isn't their cup of tea, and leave because they can't deal with that contact to their bodies and ego...

Now, take that into MMA, and take the survivability concerns out of the equation because it is a sport, and you have all this time to think about how to best subdue, and submit your opponent.

The same can be said the other way around. Take a MMA practitioner and introduce live stickfighting into that person's game, and I'm pretty sure that his SD/MMA game will skyrocket.

Like I said before, a coupling of FMA and MMA is nothing but a good thing in terms of athleticism, and attitude towards combat.

 

[Ronin74]

I think your pain tolerance/exposure is pretty high when you bring FMA into a MMA setting. Getting hit by a stick in FMA really puts striking/getting hit into perspective. Personally, I think it gives you a leg up in how you defend yourself.

I totally forgot about that. I think it's easy to take that part for granted as it's the first thing we usually embrace in FMA- at some point, we're gonna get hit with sticks.

 

[Tez3]

At an MMA night I went to a couple of years ago there was a demo of stick fighting, when I say demo it was more a real fight lol! Impressive and everyone appreciated it.
The difference between styles is often only in the head and just needs a little imagination to transcribe moves made in any style to be of use in MMA, thats the fun of it.

 

[K831]

This is still going on??

*sigh*... I don't think you "get it" when it comes to your perception of striker vs. grappler vs whatever.

What you're saying is basically an excuse, and this thread shows that a lot of people out there advocate learning different ranges of fighting because it would only help them.

Why deny that? Why do that to yourself?

If you're going to fight with a rule set, be the best you can be at that rule set. In a MMA fight, that means learn to fight on the ground.

I wrestled through junior high and high school. Both Greco and Freestyle. I currently attend a gym where both Gi and no Gi Bjj is taught.

Your whole argument rests on a "condition" or an "if" that nowhere in my post did I place on myself;

If you're going to fight with a rule set, be the best you can be at that rule set. In a MMA fight, that means learn to fight on the ground.

Hence the failure of your argument.

"This" as you state it, is still going on because too many fans of the sport do just what you did; assume that because there are "rule sets" somewhere... surely they apply everywhere. My training is no longer based around competition. I have no "rule set" to learn to work around. You shoot on me, no rules will protect you, and I refuse to train as if they will protect me.

A little objectivity and you would see that with some minor rule changes, Lay and pray would no longer even exist.

 

[K831]

You haven't watched much MMA really have you?
Have you seen the KOs? Watched the stand up part much?
In MMA you fight tactically, when your coach decides you're fighting and who you are fighting you then study your opponent, his strengths, his weaknesses and you make a gameplan. It's not like you get in there and just respond to whatever he does. I'm betting that someone will take you down within the rules! I'm also betting that you can be taken down outside the rules too.
The rules are there because it's a competition, they have rules to enable fair play and an entertaining fight.
As I said the rules don't favour any particular type of fighter, they just ensure the safety of the fighters.


Nolerama, nice post! I agree with you totally.

I find most every violent altercation I have been in, it really did pay off that I had my coach there. It was great that I had watched so much tape, figured out the assailants strengths and weaknesses so that when attacked I could exploit them. Are you serious??

Honestly, has reading comprehension suffered recently in this forum? Can we dispose of the logical fallacies?

All rules favor something in lieu of something else. I never said I disagreed with the rules, as mentioned I appreciate the "safety' they provide "athletes".

However to say these rules don't favor one set of tactics or mind set or style over another is just silly, since by admission in this thread, you have to train to "work around" said rules.

 

[K831]

This is kind of what I wanted to avoid.

Apologize if my response to Tez took your thread in the wrong direction. It just boggles my mind that fans of a sport actually believe all arts fit into that sports little box equally, with no art benefiting more than another.

I'd like to know where and how my FMA training fits into MMA, not how it would compare in an all-out fight.

Sure, but understanding fundamentally which of these two (MMA as a "sport" or an actually all out fight) your art is fundamentally designed for will help you answer that question.

For example: Most FMA's are clearly designed for altercations far outside the realm of "sport with rules" like MMA.

Most Kali/Escrima schools I have trained in put a weapon in the hand of the beginning student. That is a notion that is, in my experience, unique to that art and culture. As a result, most FMA practitioners (especially early on) have a high degree of accuracy, precision and high degree of sensitivity (trapping etc). Those skills are more a requirement early on with blade work than with empty hand work.

Does this translate as helpful in MMA? Sure. However, how much of your work in FMA is done with open hands? Have you considered the pro's and cons of a striker who trains largely to strike with open hands and uses that in MMA?

 

[Stickgrappler]

hello all:

*bows deeply*

i recently got both Kali Tudo 1 and 2 in the mail. i've not had a chance to watch it in one uninterrupted sitting. the little i did get to watch is a goldmine imo and may be the next 'element' incorporated into MMA. first there was bjj, then wrestling takedowns, the greco-roman clinch, the sambo leglocks, etc. now you have the in and out fighting of lyoto machida's shotokan. the dog brother's kali tudo may be the next element in the evolution of MMA.

most people train FMA weapons with the idea of attribute development. most of the FMA claims are that what you train with the weapons you can do empty-hand. kali tudo shows this and some drills to develop this. one key is footwork.

there is a thread on the dog brothers forum that may shed some insight:

http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=597.0

HTH.

~sg

 

[Tez3]

Apologize if my response to Tez took your thread in the wrong direction. It just boggles my mind that fans of a sport actually believe all arts fit into that sports little box equally, with no art benefiting more than another.



Sure, but understanding fundamentally which of these two (MMA as a "sport" or an actually all out fight) your art is fundamentally designed for will help you answer that question.

For example: Most FMA's are clearly designed for altercations far outside the realm of "sport with rules" like MMA.

Most Kali/Escrima schools I have trained in put a weapon in the hand of the beginning student. That is a notion that is, in my experience, unique to that art and culture. As a result, most FMA practitioners (especially early on) have a high degree of accuracy, precision and high degree of sensitivity (trapping etc). Those skills are more a requirement early on with blade work than with empty hand work.

Does this translate as helpful in MMA? Sure. However, how much of your work in FMA is done with open hands? Have you considered the pro's and cons of a striker who trains largely to strike with open hands and uses that in MMA?

How kind of you to lecture me and attempt to deflect me from my bad MMA ways. Also for calling me a fan so patronisingly, in fact I'm a pro rules referee, coach and train MMA. I also do TMAs. I understand the rules perhaps better than you do, so feel I can comment on them knowledgably and I will assert they neither favour stand up fighters nor grapplers which was what the original point was.....strikers v grapplers. If you wish to start another thread I will debate each rule with you.

 

[Nolerama]

I wrestled through junior high and high school. Both Greco and Freestyle. I currently attend a gym where both Gi and no Gi Bjj is taught.

Your whole argument rests on a "condition" or an "if" that nowhere in my post did I place on myself;



Hence the failure of your argument.

"This" as you state it, is still going on because too many fans of the sport do just what you did; assume that because there are "rule sets" somewhere... surely they apply everywhere. My training is no longer based around competition. I have no "rule set" to learn to work around. You shoot on me, no rules will protect you, and I refuse to train as if they will protect me.

A little objectivity and you would see that with some minor rule changes, Lay and pray would no longer even exist.

You are uber cool.

I bow to you because you're so uber cool.

Don't beat me up with your blah blah blahs.

 

[Tez3]

Oh and we don't need rules changes to stop 'lay and pray' there's the 15 second rule..."work gentlemen or you stand up" ie if they aren't working after 15 seconds they get stood up...simple! Some refs will only tolerate 10 secs of not working.

How much of my work in FMA is........sorry,my dear I don't do FMA, do MMA though and there's something (not everything of course) in just about every MA that can be useful in MMA. It's a case of having a look and see what works for you.
Use of weapons will give you sharp hand eye co-ordination or else a lot of broken bones I imagine. Other have pointed out that pain tolerance, footwork and skill at striking will also be transferable.
MMA is for fun, that's why people compete, only a very small minority will make a living.
The OP asks what would be useful from FMA in MMA and the thread was sidetracked by an old argument ie MMA is no good for real fighting etc etc etc. And then we get accused on not understanding MMA, Lord preserve me from numpties and nuggets.

 

[JKD143]

I found this thread highly interesting. I didn't realize there were people out there who so emphatically held to the notion that training for a sport with a sporting mindset was the same or sufficient as training for a real and violent altercation. I find that surreal. It is also interesting to assert that rules don't favor one thing over another, as that is impossible by their nature... but that is an unimportant argument (unless of course you just want to help others with their logic, or lack thereof) what is more important (and scary) is this thought that one can train for a sport and think they are training for or sufficiently prepared for a "real" SD situation. Hmmm.

To the OP, should you come back and check this thread; have you seen the URCC? Some great FMA practitioners have shown how well their respective styles do in a NHB type of event. Also, I think this was mentioned, but the dog bros kali tudo adressess your question.

 

[Tez3]

I found this thread highly interesting. I didn't realize there were people out there who so emphatically held to the notion that training for a sport with a sporting mindset was the same or sufficient as training for a real and violent altercation. I find that surreal. It is also interesting to assert that rules don't favor one thing over another, as that is impossible by their nature... but that is an unimportant argument (unless of course you just want to help others with their logic, or lack thereof) what is more important (and scary) is this thought that one can train for a sport and think they are training for or sufficiently prepared for a "real" SD situation. Hmmm.

To the OP, should you come back and check this thread; have you seen the URCC? Some great FMA practitioners have shown how well their respective styles do in a NHB type of event. Also, I think this was mentioned, but the dog bros kali tudo adressess your question.

Ok so who thinks that training for a sport is the same as training for a real life situation? I don't think anyone here does, I think you must have been misreading some posts.
How deep a knowledge do you have of the rules of MMA then that you can assert that they favour some styles over others?

 

[JKD143]

Ok so who thinks that training for a sport is the same as training for a real life situation? I don't think anyone here does, I think you must have been misreading some posts.

The nature of many of your posts have asserted that training for the sport of MMA is just fine for self defense/street "fights".

Sadly if you do MMA it's something you get alot. "Oh MMA is no good for a real fight",

I think this is a very tired old argument. I train MMA…we, will train moves for fighting in a competition but we can adapt those moves to be used in a self defence situation. Our minds aren't limited you know to only fighting by rules! We are quite able to think when attacked "ooo this is a no rules situation and I can hit him in the ghoolies or bite him..whatever" just as in the ring or cage we are discplined enough to play by the rules.

It is obvious any assertion that MMA isn’t particularly suited to surviving a street altercation is one you find “sad” and “tired”.

The second paragraph I quoted ignores that you do in fact “fight like you train”. It is easy to say “even though I never train this or that, and even though I have ingrained techniques that fit into a certain rule set, I will break from those rules in a real life situation…” but it just isn’t true. You respond like you train.

Having said that, the argument in this thread seemed to start with your statement:

I don't feel the rules favour grapplers at all, there's nothing in the rules that I've seen that make me think that.

This statement is corollary to your thoughts on MMA and SD. If the rules do not favor any style over another, than any of the styles would work just as well for self defense as they do in an MMA competition. Do you believe this to be true?

How deep a knowledge do you have of the rules of MMA then that you can assert that they favour some styles over others?

Deep enough in my estimation. However, so as to be sure I am correct on the rules, would you share them with me?

 

[chris arena]

Guys. Cool yer jets! Lets not get into the old my art is better than your art BS!

Does training in a sport MMA art make you a deadly killer?

Do you really train in your FMA class to be a deadly killer?

********! You do it for fun, exercise, social preferance, escapism from the boredom of real life, etc, etc. Both methods offer skills required for self defense. I am a dedicated FMA player and am also around the MMA guys as well. I highly respect both.

What makes a good fighter? 1. It is physical ability, 2. mental state of mind at the time of combat, 3. technical abililty and 4. luck!

-That's it folks!-

The fighter that has the best combination of these 4 skills at that one moment in time will most likely win!

(qoute from Angel Cabales).

 

[Tez3]

JKD143, you have definitely been reading my posts wrong haven't you? You compleyly wrong I'm afraid in what you think my posts mean. I am correct when I say it's an old argument, that many people say MMA is no good for self defence. it comes up a lot and yes I'm also correct when I say it can be easily adapted for that purpose. Note the word adapted and note too that MMA people aren't stupid morons who are stuck in one mentality of 'dur, I'm being attacked so I'll fight MMA rules here', how very silly of people to think thats all we can do.
You fight as you train? Really, guess I better tell my instructor who's also a close protection officer and doorman, I'd better tell Ian Freeman, UFC veteran and ex-doorman, Geoff Thompson, writer, and ex doorman. Karl Tanswell, MMA trainer and self defence expert and many others, that MMA is no good because they won't be able to fight on the street just because they can also train MMA. My dear man you are talking bollocks.
MMA is a sport ( I think I may give a prize if anyone can tell me how many times I've posted that statement on MT) just as boxing is a sport. People who do either or both can defend themselves I'm sure so making a statement that you can't just because you train for a sport is nonsense. No one thinks MMA is for self defence, it's a sport ( didn't I say that?) but people who do MMA can defend themselves just as easily as anyone who does any other MA.

I only ref professional MMA so what the hell would I know about rules eh?

 

[Carol]

Hey guys. I keep going over in my mind how our techniques would translate into the competitve world of MMA. I can see very clearly that the footwork and angling will help tremedously, and there's a number of empty-hand techniques that will aid in submissions, but beyond that, what else will cross over?

Got Dumog?

 

[K831]

I found this thread highly interesting. I didn't realize there were people out there who so emphatically held to the notion that training for a sport with a sporting mindset was the same or sufficient as training for a real and violent altercation. I find that surreal. It is also interesting to assert that rules don't favor one thing over another, as that is impossible by their nature... but that is an unimportant argument (unless of course you just want to help others with their logic, or lack thereof) what is more important (and scary) is this thought that one can train for a sport and think they are training for or sufficiently prepared for a "real" SD situation. Hmmm.

To the OP, should you come back and check this thread; have you seen the URCC? Some great FMA practitioners have shown how well their respective styles do in a NHB type of event. Also, I think this was mentioned, but the dog bros kali tudo adressess your question.

Good luck! Give a good logical thought and Tez will tag in Nolerama... who will come in and tell you that you are Uber cool, then they will thank all each others posts! Have fun!

 

[JKD143]

JKD143, you have definitely been reading my posts wrong haven't you? You compleyly wrong I'm afraid in what you think my posts mean. I am correct when I say it's an old argument, that many people say MMA is no good for self defence. it comes up a lot and yes I'm also correct when I say it can be easily adapted for that purpose. Note the word adapted and note too that MMA people aren't stupid morons who are stuck in one mentality of 'dur, I'm being attacked so I'll fight MMA rules here', how very silly of people to think thats all we can do.
You fight as you train? Really, guess I better tell my instructor who's also a close protection officer and doorman, I'd better tell Ian Freeman, UFC veteran and ex-doorman, Geoff Thompson, writer, and ex doorman. Karl Tanswell, MMA trainer and self defence expert and many others, that MMA is no good because they won't be able to fight on the street just because they can also train MMA. My dear man you are talking bollocks.
MMA is a sport ( I think I may give a prize if anyone can tell me how many times I've posted that statement on MT) just as boxing is a sport. People who do either or both can defend themselves I'm sure so making a statement that you can't just because you train for a sport is nonsense. No one thinks MMA is for self defence, it's a sport ( didn't I say that?) but people who do MMA can defend themselves just as easily as anyone who does any other MA.

Our ideas of what SD is are obviously different. It is common knowledge that NMM takes over in the fight/flight/hypervigilance phase of an altercation. As to your notion that an MMA competitor can turn on and off their adherence to rules in that state, it just doesn't happen. I have seen it time and time again, in real time.

In addition, how would an MMA competitor deal with guns, knives, blunt force weapons, multiple attackers, and so on. MMA gyms training competitors don't train these things. These are the self defense situations that are most common. I remember the Krav Maga guy on the Human Weapon shaking his head at Jason Chambers after a drill and saying "you can fight in the cage, but you don't know sh#t about self defense" and so it is with nearly all MMA competitors I have seen/been involved with.

Another member did a great job of explaining this in a thread a while back..I'll have to see if I can find it.

I only ref professional MMA so what the hell would I know about rules eh?

Thats why I asked. All rules limit something in favor for something else. All rules put something at and advantage over something else.

Again, can you post the rules? The foules etc?

 

[Tez3]

good luck! Give a good logical thought and tez will tag in nolerama... Who will come in and tell you that you are uber cool, then they will thank all each others posts! Have fun!

wtf?