FEAR

Tez3

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I still do believe pain has mental aspects to it:


Having had two children I can assure you that the pain from labour does not ever have any mental aspects to it. Physical pain has physical causes, you can learn to keep going through, that's the mental aspect, it but it's still pain.
 

gpseymour

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Yes, with all due respect, however, I will repeat myself by saying that we all have our differences and our own experiences, and backgrounds that will determine our individual mindset. The same applies to my coaches, mentors, and father. It would be rather foolish to simply think that there is one way of seeing everything, am I right?
Yep. There are folks that kind of saying works for. There are also those for whom it is counterproductive, since it carries the implicit (arguably explicit) message that their best (100%) can never be enough, so why give that much.

Edit: And there are those who are just annoyed by the math. :p
 

gpseymour

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Having had two children I can assure you that the pain from labour does not ever have any mental aspects to it. Physical pain has physical causes, you can learn to keep going through, that's the mental aspect, it but it's still pain.
I suspect the tolerance/threshold are the mental aspect he’s talking about.
 

jobo

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Yes, with all due respect, however, I will repeat myself by saying that we all have our differences and our own experiences, and backgrounds that will determine our individual mindset. The same applies to my coaches, mentors, and father. It would be rather foolish to simply think that there is one way of seeing everything, am I right?
ive been in meetings where a biding war breaks out

my department is giving 110%,

well mine is giving 200%

well mine is giving a 10000%

you can see that such figures are nonsence, and just away of bigging yourself up as better than someone who only does their very best and gives a measley 100%
 

gpseymour

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ive been in meetings where a biding war breaks out

my department is giving 110%,

well mine is giving 200%

well mine is giving a 10000%

you can see that such figures are nonsence, and just away of bigging yourself up as better than someone who only does their very best and gives a measley 100%
There is a point with the 110% or so that is often used. It’s about digging in and doing more than you think you can, which we’ve all done at times.

I just think (as you said) it carries a connotation that isn’t helpful in group settings.
 

jobo

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I see what you are seeing. Interesting perspective indeed. We all have our own experiences and that is something we must all respect and I do so very much enjoy that about these forums. I still do believe pain has mental aspects to it: biological, psychological and emotional factors. I do apologize if I come off as a bit stubborn or old school in my thought process here. I am still learning to embrace the soft. I think this also depends on how you were trained, how you grew up and what your experiences are. For me, I was only ever told that giving 150% for everything is the key. Now obviously, I try to do it smartly but yes it is definitely a limitation in my thought process at times.

Would you mind to elaborate a little more on why you think embracing them is not something we should be doing? I'd be very interested to understand your thought process here.
pain is just pain, its a warning system for damage is is quite a usefull thing, mostly

i have a friend who has pain syndrome, that is he exsperiances max pain in his leg all day everyday, this despite the fact he had the leg amputated 5 years ago, he has made a decision is carry on as normally as he can, but he isnt gettig less pain as a result of this

ignoring your warning system is a mixed bag, it can result in raising your thresh hold, it can save your life,, but can equally result in long term damage, dependent on what is hurting and why

if your going to die of exsposure if you dont walk on your broken leg, then its a good thing to ignore it,, if you just carry on walking on a broken leg coz your tough, that silly

if your going to allow someone to punch you in the head, repeatedly as your tough thats equally silly, unless your being paid a great deal of money, its still silly just slightly less so, as there is at least an upside
 

jobo

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There is a point with the 110% or so that is often used. It’s about digging in and doing more than you think you can, which we’ve all done at times.

I just think (as you said) it carries a connotation that isn’t helpful in group settings.
its one of the many idioms that annoy me, its just lazy and exsperiance has shown me that people who make claims of effort that exceed the mathimatical maxiumum are lyieing to themselves as much as me and are really coasting, if they are to lazy to exspress themselves correctly, they are generally to lazy to work at their max and the fact we are having the conversation in the first place usually means they or their department are under performig and i would be happy if they actually put 80% effort in
 
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Kyokushin_1054

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its one of the many idioms that annoy me, its just lazy and exsperiance has shown me that people who make claims of effort that exceed the mathimatical maxiumum are lyieing to themselves as much as me and are really coasting, if they are to lazy to exspress themselves correctly, they are generally to lazy to work at their max and the fact we are having the conversation in the first place usually means they or their department are under performig and i would be happy if they actually put 80% effort in

Mate, please! Are we here to discuss martial arts or to analyze the English language? You know exactly what I meant: giving absolutely everything and then finding the courage to continue. It doesn't matter what you call it at the end of the day, I made the mistake to use the number or this particular idiom but it really doesn't matter who uses what idiom: let's not be so picky. my point was that pain to me has several mental aspects to it in the sense that when we feel physical pain we have the ability to decide what we are going to do with it. By saying 110% all I meant was: mustering the mental strength to continue when you feel physical pain or hence overcoming what the body isn't normally designed to overcome. Forgive me if this lead to too much confusion, I did not mean to start a silly conversation about idioms and I do not intend to argue about this either .

Also, I do understand that the idiom may annoy you but its a fit far fetched to think that anyone who uses it is basically a lazy slob cheating himself. There's a lot of us who work really hard and use whatever idioms we want to use :). And so what if one is a little lazy with language usage sometimes (it isn't harming anyone is it?).
 

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Mate, please! Are we here to discuss martial arts or to analyze the English language? You know exactly what I meant: giving absolutely everything and then finding the courage to continue. It doesn't matter what you call it at the end of the day, I made the mistake to use the number or this particular idiom but it really doesn't matter who uses what idiom: let's not be so picky. my point was that pain to me has several mental aspects to it in the sense that when we feel physical pain we have the ability to decide what we are going to do with it. By saying 110% all I meant was: mustering the mental strength to continue when you feel physical pain or hence overcoming what the body isn't normally designed to overcome. Forgive me if this lead to too much confusion, I did not mean to start a silly conversation about idioms and I do not intend to argue about this either .

Also, I do understand that the idiom may annoy you but its a fit far fetched to think that anyone who uses it is basically a lazy slob cheating himself. There's a lot of us who work really hard and use whatever idioms we want to use :). And so what if one is a little lazy with language usage sometimes (it isn't harming anyone is it?).
Here on MartialTalk, we like to meander through discussions, often having side conversations inside threads. Don’t let it bother you. Heck @jobo and I are agreeing on something, and that happens only on good days, so enjoy! :D:D
 

Tez3

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Are we here to discuss martial arts or to analyze the English language?


Oh boy you really don't want to get into that one!


And so what if one is a little lazy with language usage sometimes (it isn't harming anyone is it?).

I think you need to remember this is an international site and if you get 'a little lazy' sometimes it can make what you say entirely unintelligible to some others, also if you use idioms that you are au fait with others may think you mean something else, ie bum bag/fanny bag?
 

jobo

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Mate, please! Are we here to discuss martial arts or to analyze the English language? You know exactly what I meant: giving absolutely everything and then finding the courage to continue. It doesn't matter what you call it at the end of the day, I made the mistake to use the number or this particular idiom but it really doesn't matter who uses what idiom: let's not be so picky. my point was that pain to me has several mental aspects to it in the sense that when we feel physical pain we have the ability to decide what we are going to do with it. By saying 110% all I meant was: mustering the mental strength to continue when you feel physical pain or hence overcoming what the body isn't normally designed to overcome. Forgive me if this lead to too much confusion, I did not mean to start a silly conversation about idioms and I do not intend to argue about this either .

Also, I do understand that the idiom may annoy you but its a fit far fetched to think that anyone who uses it is basically a lazy slob cheating himself. There's a lot of us who work really hard and use whatever idioms we want to use :). And so what if one is a little lazy with language usage sometimes (it isn't harming anyone is it?).
results in life arnt generally tied to effort, there are millions of poor people who work just as hard a rich people, yet they remain poor, lots of spouses who have done everything they could to make their partner happy who are left for another who treats them like dirt

the trick, such as it is eisnt to apply max effort, its to apply enough effort in the important area so that you get the result you hoped for.

thats applies equally to physical conditioning, an athelete who applies max efort everyday to train, cant perform when it matters in the big game and will have no end of overuse injuries, that mean he isnt playing anyway

i put a lot more effort into my physical conditioning than most of my class mates, and that shows up in class, but im far from putting max effort in, as the law of deminashing returns, means there is little value in that an im oldand ijuries if they occur take a log time to heal, i would sooner be 80% fit 100 % of the time than 100% fit 50% of the time

pushing myself in indevidual exercises depends what the excercise is, doing drop sets with push ups is unlikely to injure me, and the burning sensation is pleasant rather than painful, im not putting max effort into lifting very heavy weights as the risk of injury is high and the pain from a slipped disk actual real pain that im not at all keen to exsperiance again

so in its self your 110% effort claim is meaningless, unless you quantify what your putting that effort into and what benifit it gives you
 

CB Jones

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In my experience and for the most part, fear comes from the lack of confidence in yourself or partner/team.

Improving confidence diminishes that fear....but over-confidence removes what I like to think of as healthy fear.

Healthy fear is just enough fear to keep you from being reckless.
 

Kyokushin_1054

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Here on MartialTalk, we like to meander through discussions, often having side conversations inside threads. Don’t let it bother you. Heck @jobo and I are agreeing on something, and that happens only on good days, so enjoy! :D:D

Gotcha. Thanks for letting me know. ;)
 

oftheherd1

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Fear is an individual thing, not a group thing, and it is THE thing, for an individual to overcome

I think I must be understanding a different meaning for fear. And normally we see fear is most important to an individual, it can be contagious.

In my experience and for the most part, fear comes from the lack of confidence in yourself or partner/team.

Improving confidence diminishes that fear....but over-confidence removes what I like to think of as healthy fear.

Healthy fear is just enough fear to keep you from being reckless.

Lack of confidence may prevent using good training, but fear? Perhaps in a real fight fear may cause one to decline to fight, and to run. But what does fear have to do with competition? If a person is getting fear from sparring in the school or a competition something is amiss. Again, did I miss something.

All just my opinion of course, and as I said, maybe I missed somewhere along the line in this thread.
 

Buka

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I think I must be understanding a different meaning for fear. And normally we see fear is most important to an individual, it can be contagious.

That's a great point, fear being contagious. When members of a crowd get scared....stampedes sometimes happen because the fear is contagious. Stampedes can be tough to deal with. Tougher to be in, especially if a person trips and falls.

The only difference between a hero and a coward is action. The hero has fear, too. But he takes action.

I've explained it to students in different ways, one being - Tactically, you're facing a charging wild animal, and there's a mosquito buzzing around your ear. You focus on the charging animal, not the mosquito. Metaphorically, the mosquito is the fear, the animal is the danger.
 

oftheherd1

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That's a great point, fear being contagious. When members of a crowd get scared....stampedes sometimes happen because the fear is contagious. Stampedes can be tough to deal with. Tougher to be in, especially if a person trips and falls.

The only difference between a hero and a coward is action. The hero has fear, too. But he takes action.

I've explained it to students in different ways, one being - Tactically, you're facing a charging wild animal, and there's a mosquito buzzing around your ear. You focus on the charging animal, not the mosquito. Metaphorically, the mosquito is the fear, the animal is the danger.

All correct! I especially agree with paragraph 2, and I like your paragraph 3.

Fear can be a strange thing. It can force us to act or freeze us.

But I still think there is a difference between anxiety and fear, but we may let fear control us if we aren't careful.
 

CB Jones

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Lack of confidence may prevent using good training, but fear? Perhaps in a real fight fear may cause one to decline to fight, and to run. But what does fear have to do with competition? If a person is getting fear from sparring in the school or a competition something is amiss. Again, did I miss something.

Absolutely lack of confidence and fear of failure goes hand in hand and is probably one of the most fears we deal with day to day.

Working undercover I see both sides of it.

Younger less experienced agents too hesitant because they are second guessing themselves. Not so much for fear of injury but fear of making a mistake.

Older experienced agents too overconfident and willing to take too many chances with their safety.

With competition, you"ve never seen a competitor be hesisitant due to lack of confidence and/or fear of failing?
 
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Tez3

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That's a great point, fear being contagious. When members of a crowd get scared....stampedes sometimes happen because the fear is contagious. Stampedes can be tough to deal with. Tougher to be in, especially if a person trips and falls.

The only difference between a hero and a coward is action. The hero has fear, too. But he takes action.

I've explained it to students in different ways, one being - Tactically, you're facing a charging wild animal, and there's a mosquito buzzing around your ear. You focus on the charging animal, not the mosquito. Metaphorically, the mosquito is the fear, the animal is the danger.


Mosquitos kill more people than wild animals do. Mosquitoes Kill More Humans Than Human Murderers Do | Smart News | Smithsonian Magazine
 

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